How to Declutter Your Home, Mind and Soul in Midlife with Heather Clark

SPEAKER_05: Hi, you guys. Welcome back to WTF Just Happened. We are so happy that you guys are here. I am Seda, and this is Hilary. Hilary, we're happy to have you guys today. We have a beautiful, amazing, organized, lovely soul. Her name is Heather. She has a company called Declutter for Change, which is also the name of her podcast. So I just want to touch on that before we get going. So I'm just going to open us up and chat a little bit with her as we get going. So today we're talking about something almost every woman in midlife can relate to, which is clutter.

SPEAKER_05: And not just the closet. You don't want anyone to open. We're talking about the physical stuff, the mental load, the obligations, the old expectations, and everything we've accumulated over the decades of living. And at some point, many of us realize we don't want more, we want less. I want like capsule wardrobe now, right? Less stuff, less noise, less obligation, less chaos, and more space for what actually matters. So today we're talking about how to simplify our lives and give us back some of our energy and help us to figure out what we want this next chapter to look like.

SPEAKER_05: So welcome, Heather. I'm going to read her little bio. And uh, so most people think decluttering is about tidying shelves, and it's not. This is her bio. It's about identifying what's taking up space in your life and deciding what gets to stay. Clutter lives in your mind, your body, and your soul, and also your home. So Heather Clark gives us, gives you the strategy and tools to remove the root problem instead of organizing around it. Like when you vacuum and you don't lift the couch up. Yeah. No judgment, just real results.

SPEAKER_05: And we are so thrilled to have you, Heather. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Welcome.

SPEAKER_01: Do people actually thank you?

SPEAKER_05: Thank you.

SPEAKER_03: I was gonna say that couch thing was so like relatable to so many people. So I also used to have a business as well. And that was, yeah, that is one thing that I'm like, okay, so lift the couch. You're like, oh, you do that? I was like, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: Is it terrifying when you do that?

SPEAKER_03: Um, depends. Depends if they have like the ones that were terrifying were the ones that had the animals, actually. That was the one because yes. Okay, good. Because usually you don't think to do that. Yeah, no, yeah, but yeah, it's usually the animals and the ones that have a lot of toys. Usually cats, I find anyone who has a cat. Like it's yeah. I have all anyone who has a cat, the cat toys are always little toys, they're all under there.

SPEAKER_05: So I lift my couch up and I grab them all and then I put them in the hallway for her to play, and then she pushes them right back under the couch. But it could use that's I don't lift it up vacuum. Yes.

SPEAKER_02: Maybe when we drop this reel, we'll do a quick little picture of the before and then when we pull the couch back to show because I definitely she's gonna vacuum under her couch now.

SPEAKER_03: So there we go. But I've got anything from this podcast.

SPEAKER_02: Oh, well, welcome so much. So so excited to have you. This is so spot on to where I am in my midlife. And we talked a little before you came on. Is I house looks organized. I've got some closets that I absolutely don't deal with intentionally that I need to because they they definitely take up space in my brain. And I'm always, I normally will be saying, where is that item? Because I didn't put it back, let's say, in the exact location, and I don't have everything exactly storage-wise organized, but I'm excited for this to learn some tips and tricks.

SPEAKER_02: So for you, you started by helping people declutter their homes, but realized it was much more than just their stuff. So, how did that how I guess and when did that happen when you started doing this?

SPEAKER_03: Well, like I said earlier, I started a cleaning business and I wanted to come into the online space. This was probably back in 2015-ish. Okay. And I was like, okay, well, what do I bring online? So I was like, oh, I can bring, because it was a cleaning and organizing business. I was like, oh, I can bring the organizing part online. Cool, great. Grabbed a bunch of clients, did all that stuff, did their like personalized um, you know, plans and stuff, and then poof, they disappeared. And I was like, whoa, what's going on?

SPEAKER_03: Well, after talking to every single one of them, they're like, listen, it wasn't your plan, it wasn't that. It was the moment I went into the closet and I started, it just got overwhelming and I just couldn't, and then it was like I just got stuck and I was like, oh, so it's not organizing that people can't do, it's letting go. Yes. And then from there, I just I'm I'm the type of person that if I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it full on. Okay. So I went headfirst into the psychology of it.

SPEAKER_03: I went into the like at first, it was just the home office. Okay. Then I was like, no, no, no, it's got to expand because you know, not everyone has a home office. Right, right. So I went to the home. And then it just, I think it was December of 2019. I was working at a um organic farm at the time, and I was just there and I was like, no, it's it's declutter for change. Like when you're going through changes, yeah, that's when people declutter. And then I was like, boom. And then from there, it was just been a mind, body, soul, and home because you cannot clear out one without affecting the others.

SPEAKER_03: And that's where it's been ever since. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: Do you find then that most people coming to you aren't even realizing that they're coming from mind, body, soul? They think they're just coming to organize a closet.

SPEAKER_03: Oh, they absolutely come to me because of the physical. Okay. Because the physical is the easiest because it's right in your face. Absolutely. Or right in your closet, depending on if it's you or not.

SPEAKER_02: That kind of leads me to my next question, then is take me through. So I'm your client. I call you, and let's say, okay, my kids have moved out, we're empty nesters. You know, I need, I need a plan, I need storage, I need to, I would like to walk into my rooms and know where stuff is so I can easily locate said items. What is the next question that you ask them? Is there sort of a is it a list that you send them that then have them check off to kind of gauge? It's a time audit. Okay.

SPEAKER_03: It's an audit of your life first. Oh. So as much as you come to me for physical, I'm like, okay, let me audit your life. Because if your room, your home, your whatever is not set up for your life, not Pinterest life, right? Not Joan down the street life, your life, then it's not going to work for you. No matter how much I help you, no matter how much somebody else helps you, no matter how many times you organize it, right, or declutter or whatever, if you're not making it adjust to your life, because again, we bought the house because we loved it.

SPEAKER_03: So let's make it somewhere that we can still love on a day-to-day basis without you know having the swear words here and there.

SPEAKER_01: We do like those. I was like, hmm, clearly. What does life look like without that? Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03: Exactly. I was like, I hope they're an explicit. Well, they can bleep it out because I do swear. Oh no, we say muck and shit and all the things.

SPEAKER_02: That box on that little squad pass that it is explicit, I would say eight out of ten times. We've actually been clean. Beautiful. Okay, so talk about it.

SPEAKER_03: But yeah, that's that's what it is. It's a yeah, it's a it's an audit of who you are and what you do in a day-to-day basis. Not only you, but what was your family do? Amazing. Because you're gonna be different than your partner, yeah, then your children. And if your children are not home, cool. What are you doing with their stuff? Are you gonna keep it there so that when they come in and visit, so it's their house? Or are you wanting to make it into a fitness room? Are you wanting to make like it's an audit of everything of what you actually want because we're not gonna touch anything until we know what our end goal actually is.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: Okay. So is that does that look like um I reach out to you and then you send me, you know, some sort of a packet, and I need to work on that to go through my life, what each room looks like, maybe some hardships I've been through recently. You go through all of that.

SPEAKER_03: Is that and then you what get on as we go through that, and then we also go like it's a negative and positive. So, what are the things you really want to change? But what are the things you want to bring in? Like, do you want to bring in more hobbies? Do you want to bring in more fun? Do you want to bring in more time with your partner, more time by yourself, whatever it is? It's it's a give and take because we've got to have both. Like, no matter what in life, there is a give and take in life. So, yeah, it's great to know that okay, I don't like the clutter, I don't like you know the colors in my room, I don't like all that stuff.

SPEAKER_03: Great, but what do you like? Okay, that's interesting because we want more space.

SPEAKER_02: And then where and so if I came to you and said, love my home, I want to bring more organization in that today. When I wanted to go get my Stanley Cup, I actually could, and my husband and I both said, We just saw it. I know. I don't know what I did with it. I probably saw it yesterday and put it down somewhere other than the little cabinet that has all of the different cups in it, but it's somewhere, and I'll probably find it tomorrow. So if that's my goal, is to be able to have every room to a place where I can just walk in and know where it is easily.

SPEAKER_02: Is that an end goal or is that like too simple?

SPEAKER_03: No, that's an end goal, that can be an end goal. And then how are we gonna get there? Well, do you have 40 cups in smashed into that one cupboard?

SPEAKER_03: She's answering for you. Yes, yes, you do. I mean, I do.

SPEAKER_05: I probably have eight, and I probably only need two, and I'm but the matching lids, yeah, all of it.

SPEAKER_03: And that's it. So you came to realize, oh, I have this many, but really, I actually only need this many. Right. Like, okay, you said eight, but you only really need two, right? So then why do we have the six? Okay.

SPEAKER_05: Just in case I come over or in case we need to give six out to put cocktails in when we go boating.

SPEAKER_02: But that those are different cups.

SPEAKER_05: But I'm just talking about my actual.

SPEAKER_02: I'm not talking about right. I have plenty of I was artistic.

SPEAKER_03: We're all we almost got our specific cups, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: Yes, I can host a party for probably a hundred with wine glasses and martini glasses and other things. Yeah. But specifically for this, going to the gym or now, I probably need two.

SPEAKER_05: So well, and I would imagine that just like moving into like a midlife question, because we are in midlife and we're empty nesters. What I mean, we still have a lot of our kids' stuff in our houses. Like it seems like when we're in midlife, decluttering should become pretty powerful. But how do you how do you take on clients where they are empty nesters, they want to kind of still have some of their kids' stuff. And you know, I don't want, I don't want to have so much stuff in my house anymore. In fact, I want to move to a smaller house and not have a bunch of shit.

SPEAKER_05: But I mean that's usually what happens. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah. That's usually why. And that's the change. Like, okay, you became an empty nester. So now you've got all your kids' stuff, you got your stuff, and then possibility you're probably inheriting some of your parents' stuff. I know that's another possibility. So now you got three generations of stuff. So it's like, again, going back to when we get that original, where do you want to go? We always come back to that. Because if you say you only want, you know, you want to always find that one cup, you always want to find that, but yet now you have five of your children's cups that they don't use because they don't live with you.

SPEAKER_03: Why do you have them? Right. Oh, well, they might come back, whatever. Okay, keep one.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah. Like I'm not saying you have to get rid of everything. That's never been my thing. Yeah. Is oh yeah, get rid of everything, just be minimalistic. I don't believe in minimalism, actually, you know, to a point, whatever, but it's coming back to this is what you said you wanted. Does this match where you're gonna go? Is it gonna get us there? Right. You say that, you know, okay, you're an empty nester, you want to downsize. Okay, with the stuff you have now, do you think it will fit in a smaller home?

SPEAKER_03: No, that's way too much stuff. Yeah, okay. So, how can we get there? What are you willing to let go? And what are your non-negotiables? Of I'm never getting rid of this. And why is it okay to have non-negotiables? Oh, I'm gonna sneeze.

SPEAKER_02: Okay, excuse me.

SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you're fine. Excuse me. I don't know. I don't know why I sneeze. It's probably my house, but it's filthy.

SPEAKER_03: It's also the energy because there's something in you that changed probably as well. Oh, I've never heard of that.

SPEAKER_02: Okay, so I'm so interested in this whole mind, body, soul. But so I do the time audit. How long does that typically take? Is it just a questionnaire that people just kind of go through and answer and then send back to you? What's that process?

SPEAKER_03: Usually I get them to do like a week's worth, 10 a week to 10 days, because yeah, what you do today, like what I did today, is not what I'm about to do tomorrow. Got it. Yeah. Vice versa. But what I can do over a week, I can do the average of where my time actually is going and how much time I actually have to dedicate to decluttering in general, but to also what do I want in life? Do I have too much on my plate that when I do it, it drains me. Oh, I love that. So why am I doing it week after week after week?

SPEAKER_02: Okay, so like you're really getting a whole sense of not only what the goals are, plus and minus, but also what someone's daily life looks like to say, this is what you actually because if I said to you, we need to declutter my whole house, and I send you this, you might say, that's probably unrealistic, which sets me up for failure. So okay, that's that's so that's so interesting.

SPEAKER_05: So, where do you start once you take the uh when they give you the um questionnaire back, you look it over. Where do you start? Yes.

SPEAKER_03: So it depends on how, so a lot of the time it's how attached to your stuff are you? Because a lot of people, there are some people, like I had just somebody that um emailed me saying that basically, like, you know, she's borderline hoarder, she just can't like the emotions, she's got the attachment to things. So with her, we're not gonna start with getting rid of everything. Okay, we're not even gonna probably gonna even start if we do work together with the actual stuff. I need to know why is she attached to that stuff?

SPEAKER_02: Right. What does that represent?

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because if I just say, oh, like first of all, and this is another thing that I never do, I will never declutter without the person with me, whether it's on camera or video like we're here, or whether it's in person, that person has to be with me because I'm not gonna be just being like, here's the okay, here we go and throw things out. Because some people have that emotional attachment. And if I don't if I don't address that while we're in the middle of it, then it can get much, much worse.

SPEAKER_03: And later on, they can actually collect more. Sure. And it actually puts them backwards. So it really depends. But I really do want to know the emotional part of things. Like, why are you attached to this part, but not this thing? Like, what is it? Nine times out of ten, it's a memory from the childhood. Yeah, it's a memory because of a family member. It's a family member gave it to me. And from there, it's like, okay, do you use it? Right. Because the biggest thing for me is what is the point of it being in your home if you don't actually give it its use?

SPEAKER_03: Like, literally, like if you want to look at the spiritual side of things, like tell your listeners if they are things that don't get used have stagnant energy to them.

SPEAKER_01: Oh they do. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03: They absolutely do. And that's part of your home. Like when you keep clutter in the corner, in your closet, in you know, the junk drawer, that's stagnant energy that adds up and adds up and adds up. I might just light my house up.

SPEAKER_03: Well, don't do that.

SPEAKER_05: No, I mean we have to do that secretly because insurance. Yeah, insurance. And we need it exactly. That well, then don't air this podcast because insurance, we did not mean that. Yeah, Chelsea, if you're listening, my insurance state farm agent who's amazing in Eagle, Idaho, she would she would say, sorry, too bad, so sad, you're without a house. So, what is the rule for deciding? Like, what is the rule for deciding what stays, what goes, what isn't worth spending six months trying to sell? Because I hate a garage sale.

SPEAKER_05: Like, I think it takes so much work, and you literally make three dollars by the end of the day. You have three dollars in your pocket, you did all this work, taking everything out to the driveway, and then you have to end up taking it to Goodwill anyway.

SPEAKER_02: Or I'm gonna just add Facebook Marketplace, I'll see things and people are selling something for five dollars. It's like, are you five dollars? I mean, people make freaking I think people make a lot of money. Like, if you have but it's for five dollars, like at that, I'm sorry. Give it away it's not$200 or more, yeah. It is a donation, yeah. Like, I there is it's not serious money. Yeah, what are what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_03: What are your rules? So it really depends on okay. So if we're talking five dollars, but you have 20 of those items and you have the time and energy, cool. But for the most part, I say I'm with you guys. I'm like, just give it away. Like, I know for us, um, here we have a lot of local secondhand stores.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: And one in particular, I know for sure because I've actually seen it in person, but if there's a family that comes in, let's say they had a fire, let's say they were homeless or whatever, or and just got a home, or they came from the um abuse um center and stuff, this place will actually let them go and take stuff for free. Wow, like free, good, whatever. And that's why I donate to them and all of the clients that I do locally. I'll donate to the local places and I'll research them because of things like that.

SPEAKER_03: There's another place that, let's say, okay, a lot of people like I had a client that she had a lot of business stuff. She no longer was in corporate, but she had a lot of business suits. They were really good. She spent a lot of money, but she goes, But I don't want to spend the time doing that. Yeah. So I went and researched in her area because she's across the pond, and I said, Okay, there is a program for you for women who were coming out of domestic violence, for women who were whatever, and they needed to get a job.

SPEAKER_03: Well, they didn't have the money to do the nice business suit for the interview. So this company gets the donations and then gives it to these ladies to be able to do that, to be able to go into the workplace. Love that. So that's what we did with her stuff.

SPEAKER_02: Uh, there are so many great organizations. We have locally, I don't know in Canada if you have this, but we have buy nothing, sell nothing, which is a Facebook site where you list it and it's I only use it to give away because it is. It's locally, it's free, it's someone who can use whatever item, or people will post asking for items. Yeah, and it's a beautiful way to sort of get rid of that.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we have one called random acts of kindness. So it's literally, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: So there's so many sites. So to go back to the actual emotional attachment to things, how do you work through that with someone? So let's say you have a bunch of items, let's say from your parents who are no longer with us, and you are emotionally attached because it's moms or dads, and it represents so much to you. How do you help people sort of it's not a used item, so it can be let's say moved on. How do you help them sort of recognize that although you love this item, it's not serving you or serving your home in the way like it's a memory for you.

SPEAKER_03: Yep. So with that, so if they love the item but it doesn't serve them, that's incongruence right there. You love an item and it fits with your home. That's why you keep it. Got it. If you love an item and it doesn't work for your home, let's say it's um a decor, like it has absolutely like it's from the 80s, 70s, 60s, 50s, where it was like whatever the decor colors, etc., were and you're like, ooh, that just doesn't work with my you know my colors here. Take a photo of it or make something out of it.

SPEAKER_03: One of the things that I did for a client was we ended up taking a table, and she didn't like the table, it was way too big, whatever, but she loved the wood on it. So what we did was I didn't do this, obviously. We we sourced it out, but we took the table and got it made into a bunch of frames. Oh, because the frames themselves were still a representation and still had the energy and still had the like it was real wood, it was beautiful, but the table itself was kind of rickety, kind of like whatever.

SPEAKER_03: She's like, you know, what am I supposed to do? But it was like the table I ate at, you know, when I was a kid, and you know, the all that stuff. And I was like, okay, why don't we do this? And it's not every time that you know the client's like, oh, oh my god, that's such a great idea. But for me, it's always let's think outside of the box. Yeah, cool, it's a table. Amazing, but what can we make out of it? So, also one of the things that another client did was a similar thing. It was a table. It always seems to be tables.

SPEAKER_03: I don't know, maybe it's like those oak tables that nobody wants, but we can stain them, so that's okay. Yeah. But it's we made them into shelves. Okay. Like floating shelves, and that was it. And it was like that made the client much happier because yes, they got to keep the item per se, but it also matched. Because they were able to stain it in the colors that were in their home and it they didn't walk into their home because this is the other thing that you know I say when you love something and it matches, go ahead and keep it.

SPEAKER_03: Right. But if you love something and it doesn't match or doesn't work with whatever, what you're going to do is you're going to train your subconscious. Every time you walk into that room, you're going to have that feeling.

SPEAKER_04: Right.

SPEAKER_03: And that's just going to train yourself to like resent that item, resent the fact that you had to have it, resent the fact that you know you had to keep it just because. So why bother? Why? Why bother keeping it or why bother keeping it in the form that's in?

SPEAKER_05: Yeah. I mean, I think this really touches on um the girl, my girlfriends uh came over when I was gone during a weekend, and I I felt not ready to move um my husband's belongings out of the closet, but I didn't, I felt ready, but not ready. I just knew I probably couldn't do it, right? So they came in, they redid my whole closet, organized everything, took wonderful care of all of Chris's things, and boxed them all up into um bins and you know, wrapped everything and put put them under the stairs and in my house because I'm not ready to get rid of it.

SPEAKER_05: I just knew that I'm the one here on this earth and I have to keep stepping forward. So, in order for me to stop walking into my closet where I want to ball my eyeballs out because everything was still there for two, almost two years straight. I did not touch one thing. And, you know, I think my kids, you know, maybe want, I don't know if they want to come and help, but I'm the one that lives there. You know, I needed, I needed help to kind of like get over that hurdle. So they came and did it. Like I said, packaged everything up beautifully.

SPEAKER_05: But I do have this stuff that eventually I will need to go through with my kids or they can go through and decide what they want to keep or what they don't. I mean, we've made some bears out of, you know, um, clothes with my father-in-law. I mean, there's all sorts of ways, right, that you can do things. Um, but yeah, that's a good I needed that, and it wasn't clutter per se, but it was clutter in my mind that I was like, well, I have And your and your emotions, too. And the emotions every day I was like, I need to just like I have to move on, not move on, but like I'm here, I'm paying the bills, I'm by myself.

SPEAKER_05: I've got to do something to like switch my mindset when I walk into my closet. I feel like, okay, I am here alone now. And Chris isn't here anymore, and it has been two years. So it was like a forced, not a forced, but you guys took really good care of it. And I needed to do that. I needed to do that. Some people leave their stuff in there for five, 10, 15 years of their spouses, from what I read on my Facebook groups. I'm on. But I knew that I was like, I have to start making some changes where I'm out of my house more, where I'm opening the blinds more, where I'm just like taking these steps to declutter my brain, my heart, my soul, and the physical closet, you know?

SPEAKER_05: So that was an interesting, you know, you weren't there with us, obviously, to, but they did pack it all up very, you know, lovingly and nice. And it's still in my home, but I do feel like, okay, like a little check mark.

SPEAKER_03: But it's not somewhere where you walk in every day and have like whether you even knew it or not, your subconscious knew it was there. Your subconscious knew that it was like, you know, and as much as your day could have gone great the moment you walked in there, all of a sudden you walk out and you're like, Oh, why do I have this weird feeling? And you couldn't consciously put a like a thing to that. Yeah, I can, but our subconscious absolutely attaches so many things to our stuff. Yeah. And unless we bring it to the surface, and this is why we start with the physical physical, sorry, is because it allows that mental stuff, the emotional stuff, the spiritual side of things, like the soul stuff.

SPEAKER_03: You're like, wait a sec, is this even what I want with my life? Yeah, like that's the kind of stuff that you go and you're like, oh, wait a second. No, I don't. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: And so many times, like, yeah. Some I would be angry sometimes walking in there because he's gone. I would lay on the ground and cry because he wasn't there. I grabbed the stuff in hopes that I could still smell his scent, and I couldn't. So it was really, it's not that it's a disruptor, but it was like, okay, I'm still here on the earth and I have two kids that I have to take care of, and I need to just like get like make some changes. And I was tired of kind of feeling angry recently that he that he's gone to no fault of his own, but just that I have so much responsibility.

SPEAKER_05: So it feels good to walk in there and and know my stuff. It's just my stuff. I don't have to see Chris's stuff and have it all of a sudden trigger me to make me so sad that I can't continue on with my day. Um, you know, so yeah, I really that was an interesting kind of declutter that I didn't have to do, that you guys did, that it kind of mattered. They're like my little fairy godmothers.

SPEAKER_02: So well, you thankfully you didn't, it was one of those where we finally asked in a way and you just said yes. And it was perfect timing because she wasn't and that's it.

SPEAKER_03: She was ready for yes, right. And I wasn't home, yeah. And you weren't home. And if you're like, and I wasn't home to like, you know, say no to like 20 different things, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02: So for people going through, I think, hard phases of life, grief, divorce, changes that are either welcome or unwelcome. I think when you finally recognize that someone is wheeling, like I finally realized that I think it was the right timing to say, hey, can we do this for you? And for Chris, and for the girls. And your answer was yes. And it was like, we've got this. You go, you're gonna come back, it's gonna feel fresh, and it's gonna feel a little different. And hopefully, this is another step.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah. And I'm just gonna know without knowing your background and stuff, I know you're going through a change right now. I can tell you right now the reason why you said yes is because there is something major or no, usually major. It's usually a major thing. If you're willing to say yes, do that, that I haven't been able to do for two years, you're going through a major change. I can tell you that without actually knowing your background, with the whatever, because that's the part that I know when you finally get to a point, it's I always say it's your old self meeting up with your new self that you haven't discovered yet.

SPEAKER_03: And that's when the clutter shows up. Yeah, and that's when you're finally like, no, I gotta do something about it. Yes, I have to, like, there has to be something done about this. And that's when it's like, okay, now I'm ready. Oh, yep. And that's why you said yes. You're like, now I'm ready. Old me is ready to retire. I need I'm going to a new direction. I've got something coming that I need to prepare for. And this is not gonna help me being in the closet.

SPEAKER_05: Yeah. I mean, that is like it gives me the chills, actually.

SPEAKER_02: Literally spot on cherry on top of the Sunday.

SPEAKER_05: It is. It really is. Like I said, yes because one, I knew I couldn't do it myself. And two, I knew that I had to put my other leg over the fence after two years and keep walking like down the road because I really don't have, I mean, I don't have a choice, but I don't want to do it in the way I was doing it, looking at the stuff in the closet all the time.

SPEAKER_02: So think of the change that we're actually talking about that she doesn't even recognize because she doesn't know this. What? The changes in your life, like in my body, no, but in your body. But I'm talking about you are on the like you are on the forefront of like big changes, right? Yeah, yes. I mean, I'm yes, building like my coaching system. She's got some huge things she's working on, yeah. That are it's gonna be a big change.

SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it is, and I do feel like the more decluttering, now that we're kind of diving into this, the more my mind is clear if my clutter is gone, so that I could work towards the goals that I have for myself. So I like that big emotional. I didn't really attach it to that. I was just like, every I'm just like a kind of I'm kind of a type B like kind of person anyway. I have a pile of clothes that I try on and I hang them up like a week later. And I've always been that way. But clutter, like you said, clutter and cleanliness and all those can be like different things with people you probably work with.

SPEAKER_03: So I can't imagine some of the you know, why well and then there's like the extreme, like I was talking about earlier about the minimalism, yeah, and then the hoarding. Like those are the two extremes. And those in themselves have mental emotional turmoil too, because there's somebody like you know, the minimalist that always has to have their place spick and spant, can't have a crumb drop on the floor. What are you trying to prove to people who are coming into your home?

SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_03: That's craziness.

SPEAKER_02: Is that um, do you find because I was raised in a house that was like my mom wasn't like you could move something and she wouldn't move it back, but our home, our home was meticulous. It was decorated, it was meticulous, it was always clean. She's probably very I mean, she's gonna come see me in Idaho in a couple months, so I've got two months to get my shit together.

SPEAKER_03: Mom, so yeah, about that.

SPEAKER_02: Because I don't live that way. We live our home always looks fairly clean, but it's like, you know, we have animals, and if you open that closet, you'd be like, oh my god, what has happened in here?

SPEAKER_05: I'm like, do you use that handbag that just fell on my feet? I'm gonna take it home.

SPEAKER_02: Take it. It won't even let it sit on. But are you noticing that people are minimalists and let's say keep it uber like that? Is that because they were raised that way, or it's more of a self-control issue internally?

SPEAKER_03: It can be both. Okay. So I've seen it where they were raised that way, that's exactly how they had it, etc. But I've also seen it where they were raised with a hoarder, okay, and they want to go totally opposite and basically say, I can never live like that. That's another option as well. And then there's other times where it's a you know, who is coming over? Like I had one client, it was she was actually a cleaning client, and their house, their life looked perfect. Beautiful marriage, beautiful kids, beautiful house, beautiful, you know, they own their business.

SPEAKER_03: Being their cleaner, I knew the back end. You must I knew that you must think there was marriage problems. There were, you know, fighting all the time. There was whatever. And it's they tried to show the world that their life was perfect because on the inside it was messy as fuck.

SPEAKER_02: Okay. So we're gonna, and I that was my first marriage. Is I always said more flash than cash because it looked a certain way, he had to have it be a certain way, and that is not what we was experienced behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_03: So I find that the outside, the physical stuff, this is why it's the easiest to see, it's the easiest to deal with, because it's the easiest to maintain, to control, to see, to view. Whereas the internal, a lot of us, especially mid-age, you know, we were never taught how to actually sit with our feelings to understand that anger is just another feeling, it's not something to suppress. Right. That, you know, sadness for a man is not something to you know, to suppress as well. Like all the emotions that we feel are are good.

SPEAKER_03: It's a way of our body telling us, like, hey, something right here, what you're about to do, what you just had a thought about.

SPEAKER_02: Right.

SPEAKER_03: That's that's the clutter. Like that's something, and it has to be, you know, uh worked through, as opposed to like you were saying, like, yeah, okay, he passed. I'm never gonna get over it. You never will. Right. But you are moving through it in every iteration of your own life. And each time you get to do it in a different way, in a way that is, you know, uh helpful for for you, for your kids, and for your life and where you're going. So that's the same thing with the minimalists versus, you know, somebody who's a hoarder.

SPEAKER_03: Somebody who's a hoarder, they have no control over anything. They are attached to everything because they're afraid one day it's gonna go away, or they're afraid that, you know, this this person passed away and now they can never get rid of anything that they've ever touched, ever, whatever. And that is also a psychological thing, too. A lot of the time they need the therapist because they need to work through the mental stuff and the emotional stuff before we can even go near the physical stuff.

SPEAKER_02: I was actually gonna ask you about that. Is as you're going through this and starting with clients, you must see when you actually need psychological help to even start on the actual what you're trying to do, which is go through and declutter the home, soul, mind. So is that a process where you'll say, Hey, we need to stop not right now, come back to me.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so there's different things. Like if we're doing the physical, I go, okay, what's neutral? What don't you have any like water bottles? Do you have an attachment to them? Yeah, okay, cool. Let's start with those. Right. Let's go at that, let's build your habit right on all things that are neutral. Okay. Because once you get into the habit and once you start seeing that, oh, that cupboard's nice. Oh, that closet's nice. Oh, that's nice. I want more of that. Then you've just now trained your body to go, okay, I'm looking for more decluttering.

SPEAKER_03: I'm looking for more things that don't match my life anymore. I'm now going to be okay letting go of the things I'm more attached to because I've gotten into the habit, I've taught my subconscious that I'm still safe when I let things go. Because that's basically what it rolls down to is the safety of the person if they were to let it go. Am I going to lose the memory of my grandparent or my aunt, uncle, whatever, if I give away this item that they gave me? And that's usually what it comes down to is they're afraid of the safety of losing the memory of losing that option.

SPEAKER_03: You're good.

SPEAKER_05: Uh, you are, yeah, you're you went out of you're out of focus. There. You're right. You were good. Perfect. Well, that's a I I like what you what you're saying there. Um, even with as our parents are getting older or uh maybe thinking about getting rid of some of our kids' stuff. I liked what you said earlier earlier about, and I've seen this done before, which is take pictures of these things so you can have them. You know, I've seen people print out, you know, or do some some interesting things with their kids' artwork, but they don't have it anymore.

SPEAKER_05: Because it's like, how much can you possibly keep the macaroni noodle gold spray on the plate?

SPEAKER_03: You know, there's so many things that I and not only that, but let's just say like let's take the kids' artwork for a thing. Like my girlfriend, I wish I had actually thought about this years when my kids were young, but what she did was she took one file folder and she did for each year, so junior kindergarten we have, uh so even kindergarten or whatever, grade one, two, three, all the way up through high school. And if the kid wanted to put something in there, something had to come out. So she only allowed a certain number of items in that because again, after you know, they're done high school, it's like uh this is a little full, so yeah, we can only have so much.

SPEAKER_03: So the kid goes, okay, uh, which one do I like? And they get to make the choice because again, it's building the habit when they're young, too. This is where I was like, Oh, this is awesome. I love that. But yeah, because and the other thing I've seen too is you know, those picture frames where it's like, okay, here's a picture here. Oh, you have a new one. Do you want to put it over this one? Or are we putting it behind? And oh, we can only have so many because the picture room's only so big. So you get the kid to decide, hmm, no, no, no, I actually like this one better.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, never mind. I'll throw it out myself.

SPEAKER_02: That's brilliant. I'm hopping for a second to get my dog to come in.

SPEAKER_05: I love that. I I think um, you know, those are great things to do with the kids. What do you kind of suggest that with um, you know, like we were just talking earlier about sentimentals or um maybe knick-knack-y things, if you know, um, yeah, I guess would you just take a picture and just that then it's in your phone and in a full in a file somewhere to have?

SPEAKER_03: I don't yeah, you can do so. I do digital scrapbooks. Um, a lot of the times it depends, like what is it that they're wanting to keep? Like, is this something like I know with my grandparents when my grandmother passed, my grandfather still was in the house, and then when he passed, it was like, okay, now who gets what type thing? And it's like, what do you actually remember of that person? Just because it was in their home doesn't mean it's a memory of yours, right? But if it was, and it's a memory of a bunch of people, take the photo.

SPEAKER_03: You don't have to keep the item because if you're not gonna use it, don't keep it. That's the biggest thing for me. If you're not gonna use it, don't keep it. Like, even for me, like I had a teapot of my grandmother's. At the time, I didn't drink tea. Why did I keep this teapot? And it moved from place to place to place. Uh-huh. And I'm like, why? Why did I keep this? Why is this something that I have? So I took a picture of it. Okay. And it is no longer in my possession. Okay. Because I'm like, but clearly I still remember it because I'm still talking about it even on this podcast.

SPEAKER_03: And I've talked about it on multiple podcasts.

SPEAKER_05: Well, and I've seen, you know, yeah, you must kind of come up with some of the same um questions, which is how do you uh I mean, I suppose is there's a difference between when your parents are living and they're not living, um, or grandparents who want to give you their old China sets. And you're I mean, I haven't you I'd have China from my wedding from uh 2003, and I it's literally in boxes from us moving two times. It's still in the garage, wrapped up in boxes. So then there's that, you know, like the teapot.

SPEAKER_05: It's like, I don't, not everyone wants their old ch parents' china.

SPEAKER_03: So, like, sorry, it's well, I know my grandfather, actually, one thing like same thing, like his par him and his wife, my grandmother, like they had that China set that you know was only brought out when all the family came and blah blah blah. Well, when he passed, he basically said to he goes, Whoever's taking this, like before he passed, he's like, Whoever's taking this, you have to use it. Forget this, not using it, forget this, whatever. He goes, You don't take it unless you're going to use it.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, love. Because honestly, at this point, first of all, the storage all that China takes up, because I just helped um a local client deal with a bunch of her China and stuff. She goes, I don't use all of this. She goes, Yeah, I love it, and yeah, it's great, whatever. She goes, but why am I keeping it? She goes, I've got an entire cabinet, a curio cabinet, yeah, just for this. Yes. When I use it, maybe twice a year. Right.

SPEAKER_05: So they say either use it, start just use the freaking china. And um, you know, I think too, I lost my train of thought, but I I do want to say the China is like a big deal in, or I guess just a lot of um emotional attachment to things seems to be like a boomer or generation or like beyond, right? Because they didn't have a lot. There was the depression, they were holding on to everything. So it's do you find that it's harder for certain generations to give things up? Um, you know, millennials all the way up to, I don't know, what is the the Great Depression era called?

SPEAKER_05: Like, what who do you see that has the hardest time letting go of things?

SPEAKER_03: It really depends, but yes, it is a lot of the old gener older generation, like basically our parents' parents was a big one.

SPEAKER_05: Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: So it was because, like you said, they grew up in the Great Depression. They, you know, even a nail, a screw, a nut, a bolt, like my my grandfather, the stuff he had in his garage. Like, when I say when we moved him out of the one house before he passed and stuff, he literally had everything and a kitchen sink. Like that saying, my grandfather lived. Like we even had one of those, uh, because my grandmother used to make it from scratch, is a um sauerkraut like maker, basically, like where you actually put it in and let it sit there and let it ferment.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, she had one of those. And it was one of those things where it's like, why do you still have it? Well, a lot of money was spent on that. Yes. Oh, well, you know, that was it was because there was so little money. And if you made a decision, now, mind you, a lot of the stuff from back then, yeah, it was worth like it was built to last. Beautiful quality. Whereas, yeah, where and that's where like the fine line, like, okay, let's even go back to those tables. Like, okay, it's a great table, it's made out of actually real wood as opposed to going to IKEA, and you like my son knocked his desk, and now there's a dent on it.

SPEAKER_03: Clearly, not real wood on IKEA. Particle bar. So it's like, what are you spending your money on really? Yes. Can we? And this is where, like, why I love that okay, yes, the quality might be there, but can we change it to match your decor? Because again, we go back to that. There's no point in you taking it if you're just gonna walk by and go, I don't like that. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely no point. So let's either a take a photo of it, put it in, put a little note beside the photo or in a notebook or whatever as to what it meant to you, why you loved it, why whatever, and then you can give it away or sell it or whatever.

SPEAKER_03: But to keep it just out of obligation makes absolutely no sense in my mind.

SPEAKER_05: Yeah, unless it's like getting handed down some sort of a diamond Rolex that I'm gonna keep forever. But see, if you don't wear watches, what is the point of keeping them? Ah, I know. Oh, well, I mean, that's that's what I mean. Do you keep it in a safe?

SPEAKER_03: Do you keep it? I would rather take that money, go and sell it, take the money and invest.

SPEAKER_02: Okay, there you go.

SPEAKER_05: And double the money.

SPEAKER_02: So that's like I mean, I have I think about I've got home decor sitting in cabinets in my family room. I don't use any of it. So it's just literally sitting there taking up space, of which I'm not attached to it emotionally at all. I just need to pack it up and move it on. Yeah, that's okay. So going back to like our parents' stuff. Yes, in that age group. So let's say my parents are in their let's say 80 and 87. And my still healthy early 70s. Yeah, so right. So still able-bodied. My parents live in a three-story home, which is insane, but it's probably kept them young.

SPEAKER_02: But they have big, huge furniture and they have a lot of beautiful items. They're not planning on moving anytime soon or ever. When and how do you start having? And my mom is very good because she's meticulous, and she'll start weeding stuff out. But for other people, how do you start having that conversation before illness, before you have to move, before something major happens? How do you help kind of give some guidance of paring stuff down without sort of overstepping and upsetting them because they love their stuff?

SPEAKER_02: Right.

SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna say it and be blunt about it, but you're not gonna be able to. You're not gonna be able to do it without upsetting them. You have to be blunt about it and say, listen, when you are gone, this stuff is no longer your priority. No, you don't care, you can't bring it into the grave or into the urn or whatever. It's gonna be on us. Can we like we're you know, one one of the things is can we go through this stuff? And there's I've seen it happen in families, is where you know, the kids of the parents will go in and say, Listen, I would like this.

SPEAKER_03: Yes, does anyone else want it? Okay, can you put that in the will? Can we adjust the will so that that particular item is for me and that's it? Can we, before you move on to, you know, let's a lot of the families want to put them in a um a senior's home or anything like that, before that happens, it's like I get it, I understand you're gonna be upset, but A, it's on us whether you're here or not, because an 85-year-old should not be lifting any Curio cabinet that they have. So it's on the younger generation to actually move the happy.

SPEAKER_02: Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_05: I mean, so yeah, I guess that's just the answer is you know, do what you can to have a conversation with your parents about trying to get rid of, you know, some stuff that they, you know, know that they can get rid of, and then maybe do a family gathering where you kind of go through and and tell them or write it down what's important to them, uh a certain item or something that reminds you of your parents or your grandparents. Um yeah, I guess that that could definitely be a yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_05: You just have to be blunt. And if they take it now, you can be kind and blunt, by the way.

SPEAKER_03: But there's there's no like, yo, we're getting rid of your crap. Like, come on, like figure this out. Like it's it's literally saying, like, listen, can we as a family have this conversation? It's gonna be hard, it's gonna be tough for all of us, but it needs like it's not even uh okay, yeah, maybe. No, it needs to happen. Like there has to be that talk before anything, like you said, the sickness, the dementia, any of that stuff, because at in dementia, in that stage, that person is back where they were, so they're always going to want to keep everything, yes, right.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I mean, and if you go to that level, the change in that of having to move out of your home and move into a home and have other people caring for you, is that's so that's so traumatic in itself that having to then layer on for the family trying to then pare down a home would be a lot. So, okay, so can we go back to, for example, people let's say I'm gonna use myself as the example of I'm not super emotionally attached to I look around and think I have spent tens of thousands of dollars on stuff, and granted, we've kept it and moved.

SPEAKER_02: We've had three you know, interstate moves. I'm willing and able to say go bye-bye, take yourself out, right? Where do I start? Because I can go through your list and say, I'd like to bring in calm, right? And get rid of anything that anything that's in cabinets that I don't use or need. And that's probably half of my stuff, honestly. I mean, the stuff that's out is what I use, and the stuff that is for decor, for example, or in closets, I haven't looked at it or touched it in a year, which means I don't need it.

SPEAKER_02: So where do I start?

SPEAKER_05: And then wait, isn't it true though, that like let's just say you had a a purple, a freaking purple tutu in your costume bin and you get rid of it, and the next year what do you need? Because you're gonna be going to like a purple, you're going to like a uh when your grandkids come, you're gonna go to a fancy Nancy party and you should have kept the purple tutu. Like, that's what I think. You always need it. Do you really know what exactly?

SPEAKER_02: Not having my first grandson gonna be born the end of October as a boy. Yes. I mean, he may want a purple tutu, but I don't own one. Yes, but I'm just do I feel like what happens when you buy it and then you can donate it right back.

SPEAKER_03: Okay, that's true. You can not only just buy it, but guess what? You can ask friends and family or whatever. Maybe somebody else has a purple tutu, that's or you know, a pink one and a blue one that you guys can all match.

SPEAKER_05: I do have a costume box still, and I should probably just tell the girls it's gonna be in the trash or a good will.

SPEAKER_02: The kids' costumes are in the guest room closet. Because what if we needed a a Wonder Woman outfit at some point?

SPEAKER_05: But I get it, I get it.

SPEAKER_02: Then we'll go on buy nothing and ask if anyone has one for Leah.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly. And that's the thing. Like that's where we'll need it. Like I know a local library, which double check around you guys as well. Any listeners, check around you. So our local library, it's had even an appliance thing that you can actually rent out. So, you know, that crock pot or whatever that you use once in Blue Moon, or that you know, blender or whatever that you would use maybe at Thanksgiving, Christmas, or whatever celebrations. This library allows you to take it out on loan just like you were to do a book.

SPEAKER_03: Wow, it was the coolest thing. So they had a warehouse stuff, like sort of warehouse, it was a small warehouse where they kept it all, and you got to borrow it for a week if you needed to, borrow it for two weeks if you needed to, and then bring it back. Yeah, it was the coolest thing. So, yeah, so all those things that you might need or that you think, oh, well, you know, as soon as I give it up, I'm gonna need it. Go check your local libraries, your local areas. People might have it, or the library might have it to loan out.

SPEAKER_03: It's pretty cool. So that was just like a silent.

SPEAKER_02: If you don't, maybe someone around Eagle, Idaho, outside of Boise, wants to start this business, will donate stuff. Yeah, and you can start. There you go, perfect. And we'll just rent it back from you when we need it for the 40. Beautiful. That's actually a there you go.

SPEAKER_01: I might just I just said it was a good business idea. That's a good business idea.

SPEAKER_05: But Heather, you're gonna I don't want the stuff. She's yeah, Heather, you're gonna say, and neither one of you are allowed to have that business. I'm not, I don't want it. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_03: You two are not allowed having the business. You just you've got your business. You gotta give it to somebody else.

SPEAKER_02: And I'm happy to donate my style items to them that I don't need.

SPEAKER_03: There you go. Perfect.

SPEAKER_02: In fact, they can come and get it themselves. Okay, so whoever's listening to start this business, call us. Come get our DM me, come get our bring it to you. I have a truck. Like, right, that's a brilliant idea. I don't think that we actually have that.

SPEAKER_05: I've never I've never heard of although I think I saw when we were voting a few years back. I think I saw you can rent a um a what's the thing that you run across the sand and you want to look for gold or money? It's like a oh, like a metal detector. Metal detector. I saw that you can rent one of those at the library. I was very bizarre. We don't even have sand here. Uh no, like at the park. I don't know. I saw one, I saw someone using one of the things.

SPEAKER_02: Well, I don't know. Okay, total segue. So we're so I start where? I start in just let's say a room.

SPEAKER_03: I would say start either a if you don't already have a spot where you can just sit and be calm, then I would start find one, make one, or start in your bedroom. Because at the end of the day, your bedroom, your sleep is supposed to be a sanctuary. It is supposed to be where you calm down at the end of the day, where you push your worries away, where you write down on a piece of paper and saying, I'll deal with that tomorrow. So I would always say start with the bedroom. The bedroom should be the part where you can go in, change in your pajamas, or go naked if that's what you do as well.

SPEAKER_03: Um, and just relax. Yeah, okay. So I would start in the bedroom so that that becomes that place where you can relax, where you can go into the bedroom, close the door, and just go.

SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I like I really like my my bedroom. Feels, I want to change my bedding out and things, but it does feel like I feel most calm and safe in my bedroom. I also started taking um like they have these little shower lamps that you can like put a little lamp in your shower now, but I just like light and I shower like in the dark with a candle sometimes. And it's so like it is so calming to me. So I love now I love my closet, my bathroom, my bedroom. I but you're right. I think that what I want to do is go through my house and see where these little piles of shit that are collecting bad energy that I need to get rid of.

SPEAKER_05: That's amazing. Like I was like, we need to get rid of this. That's my shit too.

SPEAKER_02: Here in our podcast, we have little piles. We have a corner of things. I, as we figured this out in our iterations, I have a few things in here that we don't actually use in here, and I need to just get rid of them. No, I mean right. Why are they sitting over there? Yeah, yeah, it's true.

SPEAKER_03: Yep, and and that's it. And the bedroom is the last thing you are in before you fall asleep. True. And the first thing you are in when you wake up. True. Unless you fall asleep on the couch, but you know, we're not talking about that. But so why not make it a place where you can literally wake up and go to bed just calm and just whatever? Because guess what? I promise you, all the listeners listening, plus you ladies as well, is your day is already busy enough. You don't need that busyness in the bedroom.

SPEAKER_02: What about so my bedroom is actually like that's well, besides the fact that my two dogs and a cat sleep on our bed, whatever. Um, and I sleep like you know, at an angle, is my room and sleep in that little teeny tiny cord. Yeah, I don't I don't have clutter in my bedroom. Now, if you open up my nightstand, I laugh because I opened up looking for something the other day. Sean was looking for something, and I'm like, why do I have 800 chords? Why I don't even know if I have the iPhone they still go to.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah. So does that if I can't see it, for example, that's where I would start. Okay. So I have to then take to the I would start with just that little thing.

SPEAKER_03: Just okay. Because you just the way you were like, I could see the way you were talking about it, and you're like the facial expressions, I could tell that it bugs you. Yeah, subconsciously, it's bugging you. And you're just like, why is it there? Why do I have that? Like, what do I even have the phone for that? Right. Like, just the way you were just talking about it. I'm like, I would start there.

SPEAKER_05: So you're saying that her technically, because she can't see it and she shut the drawer, right? I know the energy is still all angry inside because she knows it's there and it's not clean. Yep. Even though maybe you didn't think the cords would bother you, it's like I don't need them.

SPEAKER_02: I don't.

SPEAKER_05: I like this.

SPEAKER_03: And that's why, like, even when people do the closet where they, you know, oh, it's okay, I can't see it. Yeah, no, but you know it's there.

SPEAKER_02: It's so true.

SPEAKER_03: Subconsciously, on a more subconscious level, you know it's there, and it's taking bit by bit of your subconscious every single day because you may not consciously go, Oh, I gotta clean that. Your body knows. If you've said I've got to clean that once, you've already ingrained that into your subconscious that that's something that needs to be cleaned.

SPEAKER_02: Okay.

SPEAKER_05: So when we're, you know, starting with our bedroom, and let's just say my room doesn't have a lot in it, but I would like to spruce it up a little bit. Um, what do you say? You know, we're we're gonna talk about, you know, you can hire Heather, you can um do all of that stuff. She's in Canada, but for somebody that's just gonna be their own little, you know, fairy godmother, do you do like key a keep pile, a get rid of pile, a donate pile? And you know, how do you what's your biggest takeaway to be able to tell somebody where to start in their bedroom to make it a little sanctuary for them?

SPEAKER_03: Uh first thing is get a timer.

SPEAKER_01: Okay.

SPEAKER_03: Oh, get a timer. I know you guys are all like me. What? Yeah. So I always tell people to do it in spurts.

SPEAKER_02: Okay.

SPEAKER_03: Don't try and do the entire house in one weekend, in one day, or whatever, because you're not, you're gonna burn out trying to do that, and then you're never gonna want to go near it again. And we do not want that. Yes, we want to train your subconscious, we want to train your habits, we want to train you to go, oh, decluttering isn't so bad. Yeah, right. Oh, I can do this. Right. Okay, great. And I say I timer because how many times and how many memes do we see on the internet? Oh, I was cleaning out my closet and I found this, and then three hours later.

SPEAKER_03: It's so true. I have it's an absolute mess on my bed.

SPEAKER_05: I have all my old pictures out. I'm like, oh, I wore these glasses to my prom, you know, and then you're just texting together. Well, like, look what I found. Or I'll text my sister and I will say, Oh my gosh, you remember this picture? And then it's like I didn't even do anything.

SPEAKER_03: So this is why I say a timer because guess what happens when you know a timer is going. Yeah, okay. You're gonna want to go, oh wait, I don't want this timer to go off and mean not to have accomplished something. So I always say, like, and this is what I do with my um with my members too, is we do 25 minutes. Okay. Oh, okay. So you set a timer for 25 minutes, you decide, okay, I'm going to do like with yours, I'm gonna do the side table. In this 25 minutes, I'm gonna see how much of this side table I can get done.

SPEAKER_03: Cool. Set the timer, put on some music, and get done. Go through it. You can automatically give away stuff. I say put the box near the exit because if we put it anywhere else, we're just gonna keep the box in our house for like three, four months. I do that. I do that too. Yeah. Oh, I know. Or in the car. I've also had people where they do it in the car. Yeah, yeah.

unknown: Yep.

SPEAKER_03: That's another accountability I make sure of the clients. I was like, did you get rid of that? Did you actually they're like send me a picture? I'm going right now. I love that. But the timer, the music, and knowing, okay, just a small thing. You're not going to do the whole bedroom in 25 minutes, but you can look at that side table. You can look at one drawer. You can look at one shelf if you have a bookshelf in there. You can go in your closet and go, okay, I'm going to take out 10 items in that 25 minutes that I no longer wear or that I don't want or that doesn't fit.

SPEAKER_03: So it's those small bursts of 25 minutes. Right. And then you take a break. You automatically, after those 25 minutes, you get up, you do whatever, you walk around, go get a drink, do whatever, like grab a little snack or anything, and then come back and do 25 minutes again. Okay. And then I do that for three rounds with my members. Okay. And I find that that 90 minutes, so three rounds of the 25 is has been ideal. And I have tested this over the years again and again. I've done it where it's two hours.

SPEAKER_03: I've done it where it's only an hour. I've done it where it's, you know, a whole we've tried a whole weekend. And don't do that. That's why I know don't try doing that. Right. But that 90 minutes seems to be like that sweet spot where it's like you're getting to the point where you're like, okay, I'm tired. I'm physically exhausted because you're literally, as you go through the mental and emotional stuff too, it's physically exhausts you. But it's pushing your limits a little bit, but not to a point where you get to the point where you're like, oh, I have to do this tomorrow, and you go, I don't want to do this.

SPEAKER_03: You go, nope, I'll leave this for tomorrow and I'm good. And so or I'll leave this for the weekend and I'm good.

SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I was gonna say, how do you guide them to do a 90-minute three 25-minute sessions on a Saturday? Do you say then next Saturday is your next day, or is it like, let's try to tackle two days in a row?

SPEAKER_03: It depends on them. It depends on what their goal is. One client had a goal of, well, I've got somebody coming from out of town next weekend. I need this done before then. I was like, okay, well, let's look again where that timetable at the beginning, the time audit. Okay, you said that you wanted to get this done by this date. What time do you have reasonably that you can actually get it done? Yeah. And you'd be surprised. I will always say, like every member that's come new or whatever, and they're like, oh, the first 25 minutes, they're like, oh crap.

SPEAKER_03: Okay, I didn't get it done, but yeah, yeah, the next one. I promise you, you get more done in that 90 minutes being timed than you would if you didn't time yourself.

SPEAKER_02: That makes so much sense because yeah, I'm used to like pulling everything out and going to create five hours a complete disaster, a mess. Of which I'm like, why the fuck did I start this?

SPEAKER_05: And we have dinner at five pandemic.

SPEAKER_02: Like, why it's now my now the room is completely right, completely disseminated. And I can't find anything, I don't know where anything is. It's a disaster. And then I think, like, oh my god, I have to now figure this out and then before I can like go and do something else.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah. The mental and then the thoughts go, oh, I can't do this. Oh, I can't believe I didn't complete this. Come like, so this is why I always say, like, don't try and do the whole room, figure out what you can do in 25 minutes because 25 minutes is a long enough time that you can get something done, but not too long where you're not giving yourself a break. And this works for even work. Like, I don't know who else is. This is the Pomodoro technique. I don't know if you've heard of that. That is a productive, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: Yes. I do it with decluttering. Oh, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: I even did it with my kids when they were younger. I was like, all right, 25 minutes. Let's go. Actually, with them, I I only did 15 minutes because with age, it was like adjust to their age. But yeah, like 25 minutes. You can do 25 minutes. You can think I can do this in 25 minutes. You are proving every time you finish those 25 minutes that yes, you can do it. And you're teaching yourself, your subconscious, your like your body, your everything, that yes, I can do this. That yes, I don't have to make an enormous mess on my bed in order to do this.

SPEAKER_03: Like, this is why the Marie Condue thing was a little over the top.

SPEAKER_05: Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: I yeah, listen, if it's on Netflix, it's a little over the top in my eyes, but that's okay.

SPEAKER_05: We've all done it. And I've also like blown up my, you know, not in this house, but in in my other houses, going through old stuff and putting it on my bed. And then I'm too tired to do anything else with it. So I just like scoot it over and then just get under the scoot it over, or you go sleep on the couch. Or sleep in the other room. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: I'm like, ah, why did I do this to myself? Like you said. And you don't have to thank it to let it go. Like that whole right, the oh, you've thank you, you've served me. It's like, no, just go, just be gone.

SPEAKER_05: Just be gone. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: Just be gone.

SPEAKER_03: There's certain, there's certain people that need certain things. Like, yes, those sentimental items and stuff. There is certain people that need that ritual, and cool, that's fine.

SPEAKER_02: Sure.

SPEAKER_03: But for the most part, and this is why we start with the neutral stuff, is you don't. You just go, okay, and you can thank it as a whole if you need to. You don't have to thank each individual item. And I the other thing is too, I find it funny. Um, her techniques and her folding techniques. Now that she's a parent, she was like, Yeah, no, they those don't work. No.

SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: I was like, Well, you guys did something. I was like, No kidding. Which I I've I've messed up a couple of them.

SPEAKER_02: They've folding, I don't have anything. I try not to fold stuff. I try and have it all on hangers.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: Because mine's all in my closet too. It's straight out of the dryer. And then, well, the putting away, maybe not so much.

SPEAKER_03: Like, eh, but it goes Isn't there a meme of like uh wash one to two days, uh putting away seven to ten business days or something?

SPEAKER_02: Right. And then how do two people create so much laundry? I have no idea. I know. So start with the neutral stuff, so the things that you are not attached to. So for me, nightstand, don't care. Well, maybe not the tool.

SPEAKER_01: But set yourself a timer for when you do that nightstand. You might need to keep some coins in the night.

SPEAKER_02: But the cords for the iPhone is well.

SPEAKER_05: Make sure the batteries work. Make sure you need the cords for those.

SPEAKER_01: Exactly. I'll have to check the cords.

SPEAKER_05: And whoever's out of cords for those instead of batteries, brilliant.

SPEAKER_02: I know, right? Then you've got to make sure like you know where they are.

SPEAKER_05: Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: But then, like all of my decor stuff, I'm not attached to it. And then, so if you are attached to things, like I do have my parents' china, which actually I asked for. Okay. Even though I don't use it, I just love the idea that it was from my parents' wedding. And they had a couple sets. So I'm like, no, I love it's, you know, I will pull it out probably. For Thanksgiving when they come.

SPEAKER_05: But are you saying she should get she should get it? But I do love it.

SPEAKER_02: And I have room for it. Okay. So in that case, it's not.

SPEAKER_03: And I was about to say, and it all depends on your lifestyle and the way, like, okay, you said you have the room for it. Does it still like when you look at it, does it give you that? Oh, I love this every single time. Like, oh yes. Then perfectly. Yeah, I think of it like that. Those are the things I say. Yeah. Yes. Key. Okay. Because it's the things that when you see it and you go, like it's it's literally like you see, like I was saying earlier, I saw her body change when she was talking about the nightstand and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03: So I was like, yeah, the cords and everything. So those are the things that like when you can notice your body go into a negative feeling, your shoulders just tighten up, your body is whatever. Those are the things that you gotta ask, why am I keeping that? Okay. If, on the other hand, it brings you absolute joy that you love it, that brings a smile, you brings like good memories. Absolutely keep it. Now, what I would say too is maybe put one or two of the items on display that you can always have that feeling as well.

SPEAKER_03: Oh.

SPEAKER_02: Oh no, that can't happen.

SPEAKER_03: She's like, no, that's not happening.

SPEAKER_02: My house is very specific.

SPEAKER_03: Yes. There you go. All right, perfect.

SPEAKER_02: You know what you love. And that's that's that's the joy, but that is it's not style, it would not match the styling, but I can open the cabinet and see the China box, right? That it's like the soft box that it's in and say, Oh, that's the China, right?

SPEAKER_03: Okay, then that then the that so you know who you are as a person, too. I can tell that as well, because those who know who they are, internally, externally, whatever, they know what they do like and what they don't like. Yeah, therefore it makes decluttering much easier.

SPEAKER_02: So that's actually a good point. So if you don't know, what do you do with those clients then?

SPEAKER_03: If let's say then we figure out like what is it? Like, like we go back to that first thing. Like, what what is your goal here? And why is that your goal? Okay. Like, okay, my goal is we're about to downsize in a year, let's say. Okay, cool. So within the year, you want all this stuff decluttered so that you have so much, you know, whatever. In that year, you're gonna change, your mind's gonna change, your whatever. Do you know and are you capable? Like, are you confident that no matter what happens, you're gonna still stay on that goal of in a year, we're still gonna move and downsize.

SPEAKER_03: Absolutely. And then if they're wishy-washy with that, it's like, okay, what is it that's whatever? Now, mind you, sometimes it's the relationship itself. Well, I'm not convinced that I the he he or she is the actual person I'm wanting to in a year from now. And it's like, oh, that's a totally different thing. That's a whole different podcast. Yep. But but those are the things that come out as you start decluttering. So anyone listening, if because that's where the soul part comes in. Right. It's the mind, the body, but then the soul, when you start getting rid of stuff that you're like, oh, I know I don't want that.

SPEAKER_03: No, I don't want, no, I don't want that, and you start getting closer to who you are, then the soul part of is this really what I want? So is this really who I am? Right.

SPEAKER_05: So that leads me to the question of did that couple who was very bougie on the outside, did they stay together because of what you saw on the inside? They did not they did not. They did not.

SPEAKER_03: That's so hard.

SPEAKER_05: I mean, that's hard. Yeah, that's like, yeah, devastating. Okay, we do have a like a little Raz question for you. What are you still terrible at letting go of as this amazing, you know, organizer, mind, body, soul. And what have you let go of that genuinely made your life feel better?

SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna say the what it's still hard to let go of is expectations for me. I know that does like stuff. No, okay. Stuff I'm like, whatever. Yeah. Letting go of, like, if you tell me like I gave up alcohol, I gave up coffee for a while, I gave up, I was a vegan for a while. Like, there's certain things that I'm like, meh, I'm like, whatever. Yeah, right. But for me, it's expectations of myself. It's not necessarily expectations of others because whatever, but it's expectations of myself. Like, I just went through it today.

SPEAKER_03: Like, I was like, you should be more productive. You should, you should. Yeah, and I was like, you know where this is coming from. So yeah, it's that one in particular that I'm like, I still go through where it's the expectations of myself. Like, I'm adjusting my sleep schedule right now because my daughter's in rep volleyball. Actually, dad is with her right now. Okay. And normally at like 10 p.m., I'm in bed sleeping or whatever. Well, she doesn't finish until 10 p.m. now on like a Monday, Wednesday, Friday type thing.

SPEAKER_03: So today was one of those days where my expectations were a little higher of myself that they should be. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02: So see, so you're learning to give yourself grace then.

SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah, and that's the thing. Like, I've actually even written an article of it that will be coming out on my LinkedIn because of this, because I'm like, I know I'm not the only one, especially right now, that's going through this stuff. Yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05: Okay. I mean, I love that. And then what was the second question? I remember. Um, no, it was what are you still terrible at letting go of your you know expectations, and what have you let go of that genuinely made your life better?

SPEAKER_05: Maybe it will eventu eventually be myself.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah. Well, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna put this on, and it's gonna sound bad, but I'm gonna put a little note here saying we are friends now, but I would say my marriage.

SPEAKER_05: Okay, so that's a yeah, yeah, like that's a whole other podcast.

SPEAKER_03: So because I had lost myself in that, and then when it happened, did it take this long? Yes. Did we go through two rounds of court in order to get to wherever? But that brought me and allowed me to understand more and more of letting go and really letting go of the ego and letting go of the marriage in the sense of I was just doing things then just because it was the next thing that society had told us to do. Yeah, we had a conversation that time.

SPEAKER_02: So are you now in the process of leaving marriage or are you post-marriage?

SPEAKER_03: Oh no, no, we've already done like we okay, we've been separated for 13 years. Oh, okay, and yeah, like him and I are now friends, we're good, everything is good now. The kids are old enough, like we're yeah, like everything. And if we didn't go through all that stuff, if I didn't learn to let go of the attachment to like, you know, like I said, my ego, uh the attachment to you know how things needed to go, then I wouldn't have got to this point and I wouldn't have been able to help the clients because I know I have clients who have gone through divorce, who have who are currently going, who are, you know, doing all that stuff.

SPEAKER_03: So, and even with the parents, you know, when somebody has passed. I've had actually I have one of my cleaning clients because I still do cleaning clients for seniors and those who have either disabilities or children with disabilities. Um, but one of the clients became a client because her grandmother had passed away. Okay. So I was helping them with their grandmother stuff, then she became fine. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: So I mean, I think that's such a good point to even just kind of um like leave our community and your community on is like you have to go through these things, whether it's these physical things, these emotional things, your heart, your soul, your breakups, your divorces, your deaths, whatever, in order to even get to where you are right now. I mean, I wouldn't be where I am right now. You wouldn't have this community of people you're helping. You know, you wouldn't be here with Sean and going through, able to help women through divorce if we hadn't have all gone through it ourselves, you know?

SPEAKER_05: So I think it just really comes full circle.

SPEAKER_03: And a lot of the things that we've gone through is the change that I was talking about, saying, like, yeah, you're going through a major change because that old version, that old version, that new version is coming together and learning to let go because learning to let go and going away from that detachment, like, or the the attachment, going away from that, like it helps you so much to see the bigger picture in yourself and understand who you are at your core. I mean, it really not with your stuff, not with your timetable, not with your to-do list.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_05: Who are you? It really is the epitome of the name of your business, declutter for change, because you just explained, even with your own life or with mine or yours, why we have to get the clutter out in order to even make some, you know, some positive changes or go through negative ones in order to get to where we're supposed to be. I just love that.

SPEAKER_02: And also, yeah, I mean, just getting the physical for me, the stuff out that I that isn't serving me, that is taking energy from every single time I open a cabinet, is oh my god, it will just clear up like to walk in a room when you're gonna be able to do that. You can light some shit on fire at home.

SPEAKER_05: I'm gonna light some shit on fire on fire. Do it safely and make sure you have water bucket.

SPEAKER_01: Chelsea, yeah. I promise.

SPEAKER_05: I promise. You might lit like a little backyard. I might stage it and everything.

SPEAKER_03: I might be like give it fire pits all the time. Like anytime there's a year for like taxes or whatever, I have a fire pit. Oh, yeah. Burning is such a cathartic like a thing to do.

SPEAKER_02: So what do you mean? You take like the stuff that you uh we're allowed to have fires here too. So yeah, you take the stuff that let's say you don't need anymore and you just light on fire on the fire. Like in your fire pit. Love that.

SPEAKER_03: So, like if you're somebody who journals and the journaling you did back in the time or whatever was stuff that you've moved past, like you've gone through it, you're whatever, you're like, you know what? I'm done with that. I yeah. Light it's through it in the fireplace. Oh my gosh, that do it in a safe way.

SPEAKER_02: Have the fire extinguisher next to you. Uh-huh. Yep. But that that's brilliant to like have that closure. And I mean, honestly, I have so much paperwork from my divorce, which was 15 years ago. Get rid of that.

SPEAKER_00: Why do I need it?

SPEAKER_02: I don't, no one's no one needs my divorce decree. I'm remarried long time. Like, I don't know why I still have that. Interesting. I love it.

SPEAKER_03: And oh my god, and a fire is just so much, it's so pretty to just look at and just talk. Oh my god, I'm gonna go.

SPEAKER_05: I love how we segue over to this because that's really cool. We should do a girls gathering, bring your toxic energy shit over and we all burn it. Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_03: I honestly I'm I'm all for that 100% because there is something so cathartic about first of all, women coming together, but also doing the same thing and everyone at the same time, allowing like you to just let go of those things. Like I did that with my neighbor before she moved. Um, and there were things in there that she's like, she's literally processing as she's throwing the things into the fire. And she goes, Why? Why am I keeping this? I said, No, just let it go. Allow the universe or whatever to take that good.

SPEAKER_02: Absolutely. Oh my God, that is a huge amount of closure. Okay, so to wrap this up, you so much amazing information. So I will absolutely be doing my 25-minute segments three times this weekend.

SPEAKER_05: Yes.

SPEAKER_02: On the two sides of the nightstands. You should film it and put it on our well, there's some things I can't film.

SPEAKER_03: Yes, you can. Some things social media may flag.

SPEAKER_02: I'm just saying that if you don't have a lemon women, get a lemon. They are phenomenal.

SPEAKER_03: There you go. Perfect.

SPEAKER_02: But so I will start this, but where can our where can people who listen to our podcast find you?

SPEAKER_03: Uh they if we're attacking socials, declutter for change. I have like taken all of them, whether it's Instagram, Facebook, etc., YouTube, all that stuff, you can find me there. And then my website is declutterforchange.com.

SPEAKER_02: Perfect. So everyone can people can reach out to you, you help people online. They don't have to be in person with you. They have to be in person to go through their stuff with you. Yes, they don't have to be.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it'd be awkward if I'm just staring at a screen and there's nobody there. And the yeah.

SPEAKER_02: You ever say to someone, no, you have to get rid of that, and they say no, like I or they don't, let's say they don't really, not really attach to it, but they just really don't want to get rid of it. I think that's hoarders, right?

SPEAKER_03: Well, it depends on what it is. Like, why don't they? And that's where like the questions, and that's why I do it with them, because I want to know the underlining. This is why you know, in the bio you're saying, like, I get to the root cause. What really is the reason you're keeping that? And then usually question after question, and I go deep. Like that, it's not even just like oh, surface level, like, no, we're going deep.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so are you ever like I can't help you?

SPEAKER_03: It depends on the the state. If they are so stubborn, okay, and they're very resistant to change, okay, then yeah, I can't help them at that time. At that time. Or they need that doesn't mean that six months from now, yeah, that they're not ready. Or they need therapy first, and then they can or they need therapy, yeah. And that's also something that I've got therapy therapists in my back pocket type thing, if that is something that I need to bring in as well. So, like if it gets to a point where that's what it is, okay, we're gonna take a break here.

SPEAKER_03: You're gonna go talk to this person or that person, whoever fits you, or your own if you already have one. Yeah, but yeah. Oh my god, but yeah, hoarding is one of the biggest ones for that, but I can still initially understand, like, okay, what is the real root cause and start the process? And if we get to a point where, yep, a therapist has to come in, cool, we'll bring it in.

SPEAKER_02: I have one last question as we sort of wrap this up. Is for let's say we go through and do this process, which I'm going to, and I'm gonna get rid of a bunch of stuff that doesn't serve me, I'm not attached to it. It can go live with someone else or be lit on fire or lit on fire. When I go to buy something next, is there a trick you tell your clients that they should be sort of asking questions of themselves?

SPEAKER_03: Uh, one of the things that's actually uh one of my social posts is do I really want this item and will I actually use it, or am I just going to declutter it later?

SPEAKER_05: Oh, that is a good question. I love that. And and I I think I have one more question too. Um just about women and Amazon shopping, and you know, shopping makes us feel good, right? I mean, gosh, shopping makes us feel good, and it is a write a uh dopamine hit, and then you kind of look at your stuff and you go, you know, buyer's remorse, all of that. Do you have those conversations? And do you ever come across a house where they have like 20 things that need to be returned and they they have tags on them, you know, that sort of thing?

SPEAKER_05: How do you have that?

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: Um, it's one of those things is what does the shopping actually give you? Because you do it like you were saying, the dopamine hit. Is there another way we can get that? That doesn't mean that we're filling our closet with things that we'll never use and we'll remain with tags on it or items in the kitchen or whatever. What else in a healthy manner can I do that doesn't require me to spend money, that doesn't require me to have stuff, what can I do that will still give me that same dope? Because that's what it is, that we're looking for that bit of dopamine.

SPEAKER_03: We're looking for that, okay. I'm feeling sad. Like I've had people where they're sad and they'll go shopping. Yes, and it makes them happier. I'm like, but what makes and again, sometimes it comes down to oh, well, I used to go shopping with my grandmother. That's why it makes me happy. Sure. So that's why I do it. Looking at what it what the root cause, because everything there is some sort of root cause to that that habit. And once we get to that, we're like, oh, that's what that is. How else can I do it?

SPEAKER_03: Can I create a scrapbook, a journal about the memories of my grandmother? Or I'm just using grandmother because that's just who came to mind. But can I do something to honor them in a different way that still gives me that dopamine hit that I don't get angry about it later because I just spent thousands of dollars on stuff I'm never using? Yeah.

unknown: Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's so good. That's so good. Okay. Well, you have been amazing. This has been so enlightening and so helpful.

SPEAKER_05: So many good tips and tricks.

SPEAKER_02: So many good tips and tricks. So we will post, we'll have all of your stuff in our show notes for everybody of where to find you, where to look, go listen to your podcast because she's got one as well. So thank you so much for your time and all of your information.

SPEAKER_03: And uh thank you so much. It was a pleasure with both of you ladies. I love, I love hearing stories about those who are going through change and just going, yeah, I can tell you're doing that. I can tell that's what's happening. So yeah, it's it's this is why I love doing what I do because you're not the only one going through it, listener. You're not the only one going through it, the both of you. Like everybody's going through it just in a different way. So thank you so much for this.

SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much. Okay. It was fabulous. Thank you to everyone watching and listening, and we will catch you on the next one. Thanks, guys. Thanks, Heather.

How to Declutter Your Home, Mind and Soul in Midlife with Heather Clark

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