Midlife Friendship Breakups | Why Losing a Friend After 40 Hurts So Much - WTF Just Happened?

SPEAKER_00: Hi, you guys. This is Sada and Hillary. Hi. Hi. We are so happy to have you guys back today. Today's episode is called Friendship Breakups, The Ones That Don't Get Closure. So we are going to talk about breakups and friendships and relationships with your girlfriends. We don't talk enough about friendship breakups, especially the ones that do not come with a very clean ending.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because sometimes you don't get closure. Sometimes you don't even get a reason. And we've both experienced these types of friendship breakups, but in very different ways.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's why we want to do this episode because I've had an experience where um yeah, we both have been on like other different ends of the spectrum in this uh in the stories that we're going to to talk about today. So it's an interesting take on being the one that was had the friendship ended and then being the one that ended it. Yeah, and then vice versa. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah. So I want to know, you were sort of telling me a long time ago about a really important friendship that you had that was when you were young that ended like early adulthood. Yeah. So tell tell me and tell us a little bit about that friendship and what happened in that relationship.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I feel like I've grown so much that it doesn't necessarily bother me anymore, but it just has this little like pinhole inside that I feel like I struggle with so much. So I had this girlfriend. We were friends since we were little. I want to say we even met in like third grade. I can't exactly fully remember, but I'm pretty sure third grade. Obviously, I won't share any names here, but uh we'll just say our name is. I don't know. We'll just I won't even say our name. We'll just share. We'll just, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: And we're we are still not friends, so okay, and that's okay. So I doubt she'll find our podcast. But so yeah, we were good friends through uh elementary. My family moved, um, but we kept intention. I can't remember how. I feel like we wrote letters to each other. Anyway, long story short, we ended up remeeting kind of like later on in life, like in our, I think maybe after high school or I can't remember exactly. It's a little foggy. I feel like I might have some PTSD from it. So I've like blocked it out.

SPEAKER_00: So hard. But long story short, we had this beautiful relationship. Um, I was, you know, really good friends with her family. I loved her parents. Uh, we spent countless days together, countless nights together. We were, you know, we were in our going out era. So we would see each other with a group of our girlfriends. I mean, every night we'd go off to LA. We would go out to, you know, we'd work, um, and we would just, we had such a great relationship. We told each other everything. We'd have sleepovers, uh, we would make breakfast in the morning and we'd go to work and we'd do it all again the next day.

SPEAKER_00: So we just had this really great, what I thought was a really great relationship. Um, and I can't even really put like, I can't even really pinpoint exactly even what happened, but she was the kind of friend that a lot of people wanted to be around. She was very fun. She was like the center of attention in a good in a fun way when we were at a bar, when we were at a party. She had good energy, she would make people laugh. Um, she knew a lot of people. So you've kind of felt like when you went out with her, there was a lot, you know, we have a fun night, right?

SPEAKER_00: Because she was very outgoing. She would get us into like the front row of things. We would, you know, so and I said it was so much fun with her. And we had such a great friendship. And I again knew her since I was a little girl. And then we had kids, we had not kids, we had girlfriends in college, and she had some friends in San Diego. So we would go down and and see friends in San Diego, and we would go to, you know, just to the beach and parties and some cross the border. No. Did we go across the border?

SPEAKER_00: You had to cross the border. I mean, no, I believe me. I went to Tijuana and I can't even freaking believe like that. I was, I mean, it I don't know if it was safer then or we just were in the world.

SPEAKER_01: It was well, I don't know if it's safe or not now, but it was we used to go there and it was fantastic. It was so much fun.

SPEAKER_00: Well, I think, yeah, we think we talked about that a while ago. How we first of all, we you know, when the train there, the train back, going through the turnstile, like two like crazy that we would be able to even like survive, you know, yeah, all of that. Like, oh my gosh, okay.

SPEAKER_01: So I'm sure you guys went into Yelani.

SPEAKER_00: No, I think we did. I think no. I think we did Ros Rito, like we didn't do all of that with all our friends for sure. Okay, so then so yeah, we would uh there just was a time where like if it almost was if I guess if I'm really looking back, and we did, and I knew she was a solid friend, but it was there was this these situations where kind of like if she got a better offer, like kind of to to do something more fun, or if I didn't feel like going out, um, or our other friends didn't feel like going out, she would always find, you know, somebody would always be asking her to go out because she was the fun girl, like she was so much fun.

SPEAKER_00: People loved her. She knew a ton of people in in all of you know the area that we lived in. Um so I remember we went to San Diego and you know, we just were happy. We went to a bar, we were drinking. Um, I remember getting in the car with a group of girls, and I remember falling asleep on the way home, and my head was like against the window, and she just like gave me like a like a shove, and my head like kind of like hit the window a little bit harder. She's like, get out! Like, what like she was very rude, like so mean to me.

SPEAKER_00: And I thought I want to say she was always like a little sni not snippy, she was a love, like a lovely person back then because she was fun. But she when she was done, she was done like going out, you know. Like she was like she wanted to go home and be done. Yes, and it brought like the energy. She hit her wall and we're like, okay, I guess we're all done. Um, but we had the greatest time together. So that was a weird little situation that happened, and I was like, gosh, that was kind of like a mean girl thing.

SPEAKER_00: But yeah, that was a guy kind. Yeah, it wasn't a kind gesture at all. And um, so I think we hung out a little bit after that, and then I had ended up having getting pregnant, having Layla, and um, it just kind of faded. Some my other girlfriends that were in our group came alongside, you know, were with me when I had Layla, they were so amazing, wonderful girlfriends. I mean, we all lost touch for a little bit, but I mean I'm still friends with those other girls to this day. Um, did she lose touch with those girls as well?

SPEAKER_00: I think they all hung for a little bit, but I think that eventually it was like, oh, this is like an interesting, like she's not. I don't know. Like maybe they saw her true colors. I'm not really sure. I don't, we don't really we did have one conversation about her like fairly recently because she had friended me on Facebook. She friended you? Yes. When was that? Um, I mean, I don't I want to say maybe in the last like couple of years.

SPEAKER_01: She before Chris Pass? Yeah, before Chris. So, really quickly for people who are just listening for the first time and haven't caught up sort of maybe on our episodes, Sada's beloved husband Chris, beautiful human being who we miss every single day. Gonna have a sip of wine. Yes, have a sip of wine. Unfortunately, passed away very unexpectedly about almost 17 months ago. 18 months? Was it 18 months? This month. This month is 18. So 18 months ago. So just kind of a little context of and we're in May 2020.

SPEAKER_01: We're right. So this wasn't she didn't reach out to you after Chris passed away. This would have been before. Yeah, yeah. No, she didn't, yeah. So she tried to Facebook friend you.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she tried to Facebook friend me. Um she send you a message? No, that's what I think I was kind of like. So, and I think it when I got the message that she requested to be my friend, um, and she doesn't live uh she lives in another part of the US now. Um, like I just always wondered what she did. I think I wondered like if she got married. Her mom was just always like, so she'd send me messages. I was friends with her mom on Facebook, um, and just say hello. Nice, nice, nice family. Night, you know, anyway.

SPEAKER_00: So she friended me on Facebook, and um I was like, oh my gosh, this is it. We are going to talk, like we are gonna become friends again. We're gonna talk about what happened. Right. I'm gonna get closure and no closure. She literally just like up and left her friendship, and like we never talked again. Like there was a there was what and that was I'm not even sure. I think it just I mean, maybe it drifted away. And then I had Layla and saying it sounds like was it sort of drifting and I mean, like, yeah, she doesn't she was still in party mode, and I was like in mom mode, and that's normally sure.

SPEAKER_00: And it does friendships do end right when you have fan friends that are getting married and having kids and you're still single. Totally get it. And that was fine. It just really like always was such a hurtful, I don't know, part of my heart. So um I was thinking like, okay, this is good for me. Like really amazing, like I was thinking, and there was no message. I was thinking so long yes. Um, and this is really the only friend in my life that I feel like had like affected me in terms of um not being friends with her because I do think there's like a season for friendships, yeah, and you ebb and flow through friendships and you like kind of take it, take certain friendships as like I'm gonna have beautiful friends from back in the day that I don't necessarily talk to anymore that were served a very good purpose in my life and vice versa.

SPEAKER_00: Right. And they were great, whether it was mom's friends when I had little, when I had the girls were little or babies or you know, whatever in a mom's group. Um and so I kind of waited a couple days and I was like, that's weird. There's no like message from her. So I I just, you know, I think I had said something to my sister, and I was like, this person friended me. Isn't that weird? She's like, Oh, did she send you a message like to say, you know, I'd love to catch up on life or anything? So I gave it a couple days, and then I just kind of sat on it and I was like, nope.

SPEAKER_00: I was like, nah, that's not me anymore. I was like, no. And I just clicked on friend and I was like, I am not being friends with her. Like, I am not that I mean, Facebook friends are not real, like your friends.

SPEAKER_01: So you accepted it. I accepted everything that she she's gonna message yes and we're gonna have maybe a conversation.

SPEAKER_00: That she would just say how I've missed you all these years. I heard, you know, you have uh, you know, what what have you been doing?

SPEAKER_01: Anything something, some type of a connection other than just a click.

SPEAKER_00: A click. And then I was thinking, what do you just want to like snoop in my life? Like, you know, why wouldn't you say something? We're full adults now.

SPEAKER_01: So going back really quickly, your other friends and stage friends with her did because they was there a kind of conversation? Did they does Anwai know anything? Um as to, or did she just sort of maybe like drift away from the case?

SPEAKER_00: I mean, she did general. She drifts away from groups in general. So it's maybe a pattern. So I think it's a pattern, like we'll talk about later. Is she a Scorpio? Um I feel like she is actually oh my gosh, I would need to look and see when her birthday is.

SPEAKER_01: I only see that people because I'm a Scorpio and this sounds a lot like we're gonna go into Scorpio talk in a little bit. Yeah. When is her birthday? I can't remember. I want to say Oh my gosh, can we look this up? I'm gonna I've solution. This may yes, this may have nothing to do with you. Wait, when is your birthday again to you? On December 23rd. I feel like she's gonna be a good one. And I'm a I'm a Libra Scorpio, but I'm probably more I'm I have a lot of I do have Le I've quite Libra tendencies because I can be kind and generous.

SPEAKER_01: Yes, you are, and I'm a lot Scorpio because I can be fiery and reaction to defensive. And people who are Scorpios, I we're all badasses and I love all of y'all. But I definitely have some areas of opportunity that I recognize. Well, actually, I don't really recognize them. I send a lot of memes to Sean because I get all the Scorpio ones, and I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. It's not my fault because I'm a Scorpio. I was looking to see I don't have anything. Um That's I mean, that's just interesting because I would have to go back and look.

SPEAKER_01: It might be that you didn't actually do anything, and that's how she exits just Yes. It's not even so about accessing the friendship, she just uh moves on, like you were saying, to just different like groups.

SPEAKER_00: So I that is what happens. She has a lot she did have a lot of groups that she could hang with, including our good girlfriend group. Um and I I think she just kind of yeah, up and disappears, if I'm if I'm remembering it correctly. And I think my girlfriends would probably say, Yeah, she kind of just up up and leaves and leaves people in the dust and moves on to bigger and better. And that's so painful. So yeah, I think it's I think it's painful. And we were so young. I mean, I had but so I was young, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: Those are hard because you think you get older, you know. But I just I just find it funny that I was really looking forward to just kind of you know hearing what she had to say. But if I'm honest, she maybe doesn't even think she did anything, or that she maybe she just sort of moved on, not realizing she left you with hurt.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and left you with unresolved questions that you were still like processing.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think I'd Leila and I think she's like, Oh, well, you're not a going out friend anymore, you know. So you're not short friends, kind of a party girl, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because you're and who knows? I mean, if you're like in your early 20s, that was sort of that yeah, trip.

SPEAKER_00: So I give grace for that. And it doesn't, yeah, I just um but that's we were so close. So that I think and since like third grade, so that was kind of like a big, yeah, a big thing for me. So all that to say, but she never did ask me how I was, and so I just felt very called to just say this is not, I just need to let that part of my life go. And I just unfriended her because I'm not gonna have people on my Facebook, and I mean I'm sure I do now, but um then I was thinking, no, I don't need her to like get to like absorb some of the most beautiful parts of my life that she decided to not stay friends with, and sure.

SPEAKER_01: I'm go be go live your life, and that's okay. Go live your life, yeah. You didn't want to reach out to her back in that day, like when you feel. I mean, it's I know it's fine because things are enough.

SPEAKER_00: But I do feel like I did try to like continue the friendship and make because I'm really I mean, she was like my best friend in the whole world. Or to get resolution as to how she was discussing. Um, but I think she if she is a Scorpio, that will definitely answer some questions for me. So we will automatically I'm like, I'm gonna need to know. Okay, you just need to text me her name right now. Uh okay. Right, it's over. Oh, that's a good idea. Yeah, stop saying her name. Okay, okay. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01: So Shane is gonna text me her name, and we're gonna just do a quick little sidebar. Um because I really I you know, granted, some people are super into astrology and some people are not. Well, and she I didn't see I'm just reminded. I think there's a lot to be said about when I read about people's signs, myself, Sean being a Taurus, we are it's pretty spot on.

SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh. And I Oh no, everything about me is totally spot on um being a Gemini. What did I just say to you? Was that before we started?

SPEAKER_01: Yes, we were talking about somebody and saying I was explaining some characteristics, and you said, Is that person a Gemini? Uh-huh. And I thought they were a cancer, and you said, No, they're a Gemini. I think so. Yeah, I think they're right.

SPEAKER_00: I think the middle of June. Maybe say, let me say a state. Um whisper it to me. Um Okay, thank you. For that's the current state, from what I understand. I don't know. Uh anyway, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01: So I mean that's that's basically my. So then so your friends basically everyone sort of disconnected.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think, and because she knows it was kind of like that. I think she got married and she has a child now. Oh, is this that?

SPEAKER_01: And I think that's um just if anyone ever needs me, just so we're clear, is I'm not a PI, but I could be a PI is a good and this is like kind of a Scorpio trait for all the Scorpios out there. Is if you give us a little bit of detail, we can probably hunt you down in like 30 seconds. So I'm pretty sure that's okay.

SPEAKER_00: So that's not a Scorpio. Okay. So yeah, so that is yeah, that is uh not a Scorpio. You're right. And I think that if I remember correctly, that is her birthday. Okay, perfect. So now we're gonna find out what that actually is. Um yeah. So I think, you know, just in that story, um, and what we're talking about was, you know, even being almost 49 years old myself, um, she's also almost 49, or she maybe she is already 49. Oh, I think she's yeah.

SPEAKER_01: So just a quick little like side thing. So the key traits of let's say was a Pisces. Oh, yeah, is loyal partners who value honesty and morality, highly empathic and artistic. She was weaknesses, they can be indecisive, prone to escapism, oh uh-huh, and occasionally seen as confused or too dreamy. So it was a dreamer. Okay, but maybe more of the escapism of uh constantly moving on to like the next thing. Yeah, but yeah, sounds about I mean, that was definitely her. How long in going back do you remember sort of being in pain about that?

SPEAKER_01: And sort of like for I I know when at the end of friendships, at least for me, is even let's say if I'm on my side, which is wanting to end the friendship, you still think about it a lot. It takes it takes a while to sort of come to a resolution where I've all catch myself now thinking, oh wow, I haven't thought about that person so long.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I guess I could definitely say that. I think at first over the years, especially as I had Layla and my kids, I was so like so sad because we were good family friends. Um, yeah, we went uh now that I'm like remembering, we went to a Lutheran school together, we were very, very close. Um a private school together. But yeah, I think that I was really like bummed out about it for many, many years. And then obviously as your life goes on and you meet these other amazing people for different seasons or reasons, I'm an adult.

SPEAKER_00: I'm yes, 49. But it does cross my mind, especially when she friended me. But I was like, I'm I don't know if maybe she and Facebook's, you know, bizarre. I we all have friended people that maybe were friends of friends or whatever. I don't know. It's just a we a social media.

SPEAKER_01: That she friended you, you accepted, and then you unfriended her, and there was nothing. I would think that if that if I intentionally friended someone from my past and there was maybe some unresolved stuff, and then they unfriended me a few days later, that I mean, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: I guess maybe you don't reach out, maybe you think like, oh well, and I think it did like trigger me just for a moment after I unfriended her, that she over maybe the course of a couple weeks, that she didn't say like, hey, I friended you, and then you unfriended me at this is this hard so bizarre. But no, which goes back to what she originally did, which made them like and I think that sometimes that's just easier, right? Oh, I mean, I know like it's like the whole dating scene with people like with um our our girls or like what we talk about in the ghost scene.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like where you go on and then you just I mean you literally just disappear from somebody and you don't and Well, because that's the easier path.

SPEAKER_01: It is the easier path. It's not I think easier emotionally, I think it's the easier path in the moment because you don't have to deal, but I mean that's just running away.

SPEAKER_00: So yes, and I I think that there has been um you know, I I think in certain situations, you know, now I would teach my kids to say, here's a paragraph you can send to someone that you are not connecting with uh dating-wise instead of fully ghosting, you know.

SPEAKER_01: Well, even like with their friendships in the world. With friends, and this kind of goes back to I think maybe more of my story is I do not do well in the heart space. Is the friendships that I have left. Um, and one of them was probably more my side, but this most recent one was probably more mutual. We had come to just a totally different space with each other. But I disconnect very much like my marriage, is I disconnect long before I exit, which in looking back and in hindsight, and as a growth opportunity, is not is not probably the best way to do that.

SPEAKER_01: I need to sort of sit with the messy and the hard and sit in that, whether that whether that friend and I work it out or not.

SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's let's rewind. Let's t okay, I told my story of being the one that got left in the dust from a girlfriend who I was friends with since third grade. Okay, that's how I felt. I'm good now. I'm like, I have so many freaking amazing girlfriends. It doesn't need to really I mean I have a pinhole in my heart just like of wondering like, you do know we had so many amazing fun memories together, right? Like, did you forget all those since we were little kids? Okay, fine, done over, moving on.

SPEAKER_00: Life is too short. Chris freaking died. Like, yes, okay. So your story, tell me, tell us what you're the one story you're going to share, um, and like how it started, and then kind of w when you got to the point of um Um saying Sayonara.

SPEAKER_01: I've got two and I'll make um yeah. I've got two and I'll make the first one shorter. But this was a best friend where our kids in that phase of life of neighborhood and kids growing up, and just the most beautiful memories of our kids playing together. I had three kids, she had three kids, very similar ages. For example, like Ash was maybe a year older than her oldest because our kids were both so close together in age. Just, I mean, you know, years of playing outside in the neighborhood with the neighbors getting together and the kids were running amok among all of the friends, you know, all the houses, and we'd sit outside in our drivers and have wine long before, you know, that was the thing.

SPEAKER_01: And just so much fun. We had such great, like shared raising our children, um, and just having all of those core memories of the kids when you're times when you I mean, I've met some of my best girlfriends when my kids were those ages, you know? Yeah, exactly. Because I mean you're good, you're in the thick of it, right? You're in the thick of parenting in your marriage. And obviously, my marriage to my first husband was not going well. And, you know, those are the people that you let in. You know, the core group of things are really messy.

SPEAKER_01: Like they might look a certain way on the outside, live in this pretty home, have our kids, and behind the doors, it's just a hot mess of quietness, of you know, marital infidelity, finding it marital bliss, and yeah, marital bliss marital bliss every day 24-7. So flash forward to we got divorced at the same time, like literally filed within the same week in each other. And that was not a planned thing. It was mine had been eroded for years. Hers had also been pretty sad. Although I don't think we were, I wasn't aware of her situation as as heavily as I thought was a little more surprising.

SPEAKER_00: But we're then I do have a question to later on, which is did you not know that her marriage was falling apart because she was more private and that ha maybe has something to do with like the ending? But I I just wanted to know all the gory details.

SPEAKER_01: I didn't know the door I didn't know some of the details which came to light later, which um I probably didn't know then because I probably wouldn't have approved of them. Some stuff was kept from me, which I mean, you know, like you can people can do whatever they want. Yeah, I'm not a fan of infidelity. Yeah, like I think there's many ways to act. It's kind of like my marital infidelity of financial. There's many ways to end a marriage. I don't think withholding or maybe cheating on your spouse is the right way to do that.

SPEAKER_01: Like from me personally, I think you get a separation and you go to counseling or whatever the different things are. Yeah. So this came to light like later on down the road. But I don't I don't think I knew exactly what was like the depths of that, but even after we both filed, we were so close, like so incredibly close for years. Yeah, you're like we both have this new we have this new single, rise in time, um, new relationships, I mean, being on our own, parenting kids single, just so it's like all of those newness things.

SPEAKER_01: We had so many overlying levels of just support for each other. Yeah, since I say support. And then it transitioned to, and I won't get into the depths of it, but something massively changed on her side with her behavior. And I wouldn't say it's mental health, it was some other choices that were made that were really poor choices that I just couldn't get behind. And I want to say, in those the period of time where I don't think we had hard conversations about that, but I think I was saying to her, I think she was saying to me more of you're now remarried, you've gone off on this other way, you don't talk to me anymore.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah. And I was like, no, that's not true. I'm happily married in a new marriage. And granted, my God, blending families freaking nightmare. Crazy. All the people blending families, God bless you. It is freaking hard. So I was a family. Yeah, so right, so hard. We were not in marital bliss 24-7. We were in, you know, trying to work it out, being new kids and all of that. And trying to figure out how do you figure it out? All of it. And we she was making some really interesting choices as a mother of three children who were now in middle school and high school.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah. And I couldn't align with it, and I needed to leave the friendship. Um, and we did not have a heart-to-heart combo. And I remember her sort of saying to me, as I didn't, I don't have closure. And for me, being a Scorpio, I again I exited that when I'm done, I'm done. But because I've been done for so long, and it's like I can't give you closure because you know your behavior.

SPEAKER_00: Is this the conversation that you guys had? Like she said on the phone, I really need closure. What did I do?

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was a it was a tad set as we were back in town visiting my parents, and the girls were supposed to get together because our girls were still like very close to each other. And something, I don't remember what had gone down, and I think her daughter wasn't available. And I think we like built this sort of like night around us being together. And I think she bailed. And I think I was like my last on your last draw. Yeah, it was kind of like I'm over this. Like this friendship is why am I putting in effort when you just are making these ridiculously poor choices all the time?

SPEAKER_01: And why am I subjecting my kids to this and getting their hopes up? And I I don't remember exactly what it was, but I do remember her text saying, like, seriously, and she's very big on closure. Like closure is a very big thing to her. And um I knew that for past relationships. She was a Gemini. She was not, she was actually thinking she's a Scorpio. Okay. She actually might be she what's that for Scorpio? She's, I think, ended in my house. She might not be a Scorpio, she might be whatever's next.

SPEAKER_01: But core closure for her in any relationship is really big. And I didn't get it to her because I was like, I I don't need to have this conversation. First of all, I'm not gonna make you aware of the crap that you're doing. That like Yeah, you have to make your own choices. Yeah, I mean you're you're you're being a really So what does that look like for for you?

SPEAKER_00: You just were like, so sorry, I can't give you closure.

SPEAKER_01: I just don't think I responded. I think I didn't respond. I think I was like, I'm over it and I'm out. Yeah. And it just kind of yeah, and I mean this is talking about like this is 10 years ago, probably. Or maybe a little less, maybe it's like eight years ago. But she was like one of my best, best friends. I think about her still. Um, something just happened in her life recently and would have, you know, like I can't imagine that that's actually what just went down in her life and we weren't still friends.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah. And like our girls aren't still friends, and you know, just yeah, like I would say that's something's definitely still a pain point. Right. But um I would say that it was a very significant relationship that stopped, more so than like my more recent one. Right. Like that was a I feel like you know, we were in we were in it to win it in like really hard phases of our lives together. Um and then my most recent one, I'll make it short, is that was now we're adults, now we've moved to Idaho, now we're building new friendships.

SPEAKER_01: Met a group of people, just totally hit it off. Ended up having like three couples, travel together, hang out together all the time. Yeah, I swear to think as thieves. Right. Just like and within that context, really wonderful people who I would say was probably my best friend forward facing, like everyone thought we were best friends, which we were, and I would have called her my best friend. There was really three of us, honestly. So it was really the three of us were best friends, and absolutely love these women.

SPEAKER_01: One of them was just within the group, um, in just gonna say it, very, very insecure. And um a little like I'd say balance with narcissism. Like and maybe those go together, I don't really know so they can. But this person could tell you what you needed to work on and would call attention to like things that she felt that you should be doing differently.

SPEAKER_00: And we did talk about this earlier. So when that person would address you with things that she thought you were doing wrong, um, you know, you had mentioned earlier, like, okay, maybe I'm not the best at like receiving some of those um uh critiques, or you know, do you feel like when she was telling you, what would she tell you? Oh, I'd like to think the little things.

SPEAKER_01: And honestly, when she would say that, I'd be like, Yeah, you're totally right. Okay. Yeah, because I think as I've gotten older, it's like yeah, I'm I'm pretty authentic of like I know my shortcomings.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I uh guys, I just told her to today she gave uh Hillary does take care of my whole life and it's like basically my admin and and her own admin and the admin for our podcast. And I told her she listed off like all these things that we needed to do, which is so good. But my brain is still like pretty like fried from crespassing. And um she listed off all these things that we needed to do before we both go away next week. We're going separate places, and I I think my brain went into like frozzle mode and was like, okay, wait.

SPEAKER_00: But we have such a glorious, beautiful, honest relationship that I message her back and I said, Okay, I can't do these two things and I can't do this before we leave, but I can do this and this. And she's like, Oh my gosh, you're right. I'm sorry. That was a lot of information to give you and to tell you that we needed to do.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it made me laugh. So I'm like, oh my God, I need to stop being ADD. Because yes, but that's the thing is I think in those zones. So you did you I had no problem doing what I needed from you. I think it's different, is you and I have an ebb in a flow, yeah, where you can say something to me and I'm like, oh my god, you're so spot on. She says it and it would bug the shit out of me. I would receive it and be like, I'm not gonna fire her on it. She's probably correct. Yeah. But it was one of those where she's very good at giving information to a lot of people, as in my children.

SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah. No, I couldn't do that. And also digs, she's yeah, a super, she's a person. This is the I don't do this. And people in our friendship group and world don't do this. Total digs. And like, if you made a mistake ever, guess what? You're gonna hear about that forever for the rest of your life. Yeah. For the point of, and you're gonna hear our dogs, which we'll have to add. Sorry if you could hear our dogs. Oh, try her in the house. I mean, hopefully, get that out of the back. One of our friends made a mistake driving around.

SPEAKER_01: Idaho has lots of roundabouts. So you're right, we've got lots of roundabouts. They were coming home from a concert and it's nighttime and it's dark, and our friend who was driving went straight.

SPEAKER_00: Wait, let's just wrap up. Idaho just recently introduced roundabouts. I don't think so, did they? I think so. I I'm almost Oregon has had them forever, and California, I grew up in route with roundabouts. So people in Idaho God bless their souls. Uh but it's new, and people like kind of really don't know how to use them yet.

SPEAKER_01: So it's one of those where she ended up going straight. There was no harm, no foul to the car. It was their car because they're like soft curves. But she just went straight and then she like went up on the curb, right?

SPEAKER_00: Like she only went straight. There's like a circle in the middle of the roundabout with like a bush and like a little like a venenceum, but then it had like cobblestone. So you could technically drive on it. Yeah, it's soft. It's like on the soft curve. Yes. So instead of going in the roundabout. Instead of staying on the road. On the road, she just didn't see it and she went straight through, which she needed to go straight regardless, right? Right. We were going to do okay. She did wow.

SPEAKER_01: And it was, I mean, but it was one of those where if you make a mistake like that, which is like so stupid, you are never gonna live that down. You were gonna hear about that in a joking fashion. It's all amongst jokes. Poking, poking poking. Oh yeah, a struggle. Poking, poking, poking. So I would say that some larger things happened. Um, that one one being uh something happened that was much larger and it was a I can't come back from this, but there's lots of little things. This is why we need to do WTF After Dark.

SPEAKER_01: I know. This is like where we can have a real conversation.

SPEAKER_00: So we taught we talked about joining WTF after dark where we can really dive in. Like actually say the crazy stuff.

SPEAKER_01: Say the crazy stuff about friendships, yes, all the things. This person ended up, there was some other stuff going on larger scale in her life that she wasn't, you know, processing in her own way, but was like serious victimhood. And I was like, oh my god, like how about look at it this way? And you can't she can poke you and say things to you. I wasn't poking, I was just offering like an outside perspective to someone who I thought was like my best friend, and you cannot give an outside perspective to this person.

SPEAKER_01: Right. You are like, it is her way or the highway, and there's no seeing it in any other way. And we finally, there was a finally a night out at a restaurant, and it was like, and something had been said many times before that, which may have involved you, which when this comment was made to me about you right after Chris had passed, it was a done. I was so done, and it was just a matter of the next thing happening, which was out to dinner with our friends with our six of us, and something happened, and I was like, I'm out.

SPEAKER_01: And then she sent me like a huge email the next day because you can't pick up the phone because you're an adult.

SPEAKER_00: So you talked about you you already saw the writing on the wall months prior. There were these things that kept chipping away. There was these, there were these digs. Uh, you were really good friends with um this friend group. And you finally, you know, yes, she made a comment about me, um which was so hurtful and like made me so sad. But um, you were obviously you and I are so close that you were like, okay, one of the last straws, I'm done. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: So she writes you an email because thing you had you told her, or like what had a bit a little we had a disagreement in real time at a restaurant or something, like like a little bit like uh not a it wasn't even hidden argument, it was a like a comment. Like we were both like I think so annoyed with each other. It had been the slow descent into like breaking up, if that's the term. Uh-huh. It is breakup. And then I said something, she snapped at me. And you were like and I was like, Nope. Wow. I think my response was wow.

SPEAKER_01: Like that's like a lot, or I said something. Yeah. Um, and then I went and excused myself to the restroom and came back, did not speak to me for the rest of the night because this is a Scorpio, because now you're dead to me. Uh-huh. Left, and we did have one conversation after I got her email, and I called her and said, I got your eight pages of your email. Yeah. Yeah. Hi, I'm an adult. You can call me and have a conversation. And it was literally conversation where I'm like, you know what? You want to get real?

SPEAKER_01: I'll get really real with you. And she got real with me, I got real with her, and we ended it with a hey, best of luck to yourself, right? Like best of luck in your but it was one of those where like learned some things. Mine didn't end in confusion. Like I was it was I ended with complete clarity. Okay. But I didn't handle the I didn't handle the slow transition. Yeah. Well, and I think that's, you know, that's for me is I because when I'd been done with the relationships, I was really done.

SPEAKER_00: I think that's part of the the you know the questions too that come up is like, how many chances do you give someone? Do you do you keep talking about things that bother you or the poking or maybe the talking about other girlfriends? It's like there's only so much you can do besides or until you finally say, I am done. And if they don't see their part and they don't own it, you're gonna be done. You're not so you know, but we've all stayed friends with people that uh have done certain things or said certain things because either one, they've been our friend for a very long time, or two, they've they're in a group, or three, you just don't want to deal with I mean, breaking up the friendship because maybe our husbands are friends, you know.

SPEAKER_01: That there's a there's quite a Yeah, and I did break up the friendship, and I have to say the fallout has been really hard. I know, and it's been really hard for Sean. Yeah, and it's been really hard for the other couple, yes, because I actually really love the other couple, yeah, and they're really good people, and those are people that like our world changed. I'm gonna go back really quickly and say that I didn't handle the poking and I didn't handle the things that were bugging me along the line.

SPEAKER_01: Like I didn't bring those up in those moments, I waited until there was that larger life event. Okay, bottom line is, but I didn't like but I needed to go back and I should have handled that differently. Maybe I should have had those conversations.

SPEAKER_00: Yes, but she still is who she is. She always is going to be the pokey type friend. It's just that you didn't match that friendship. I just was like over it. That's what I mean, but that wasn't your friendship match.

SPEAKER_01: No, it's more like on a larger friendship match. It's not a larger friendship. Especially I have other girlfriends on the other side who are true friendship matches. But that's the hard part is I did blow up R6. Yeah. And there is a couple that is friends with them still that is sort of friends with us.

SPEAKER_00: Do you think they'd be friends knowing what she said about me? I'm kidding. I'm not friendly. I mean, I like you know the other couple and they're great.

SPEAKER_01: No, like no, it's just it's our friendship. They're so hard, but when you break it up, it was so hard for Sean. And that's the thing is you stay in it for your like significant other who this has been so hard on him. Yeah, I know. Not drinking your mind, but it's so funny. But no, I mean honestly, like I look back and think, like, was it worth it for him? I mean, it's been so hard because those were such close friends.

SPEAKER_00: Well, did you say that? I mean, I mean, Sean's like so amazing.

SPEAKER_01: He he could call the person and and go either one of the and well he does see he definitely sees the one, yeah, and the other one who is married to this person is a little under her thumb. And he says sort of sometimes he's coming, but then he doesn't. And I mean he's such a good guy, but like yeah, he's kind of you know, like it he's not gonna go against her. And I wouldn't expect him to. Like, you have to. Oh, if you're married, you're married, yeah. But it's like we're not seeing each other as friends, but I mean he when he does come around, Sean is so happy.

SPEAKER_01: But Sean can't be the one always reaching out, right? Yeah, and that's a totally different dynamic of guys' friendships, is guys need to have friends.

SPEAKER_00: It is a different dynamic.

SPEAKER_01: And from it's usually through the wives. It's through the wives. And so it's a kind of a burden on our like adult friendships is when like this case came down, is you know, I've I mean, granted, I didn't just blow up the group. It was a it was a joint breakup. Yeah. It wasn't just my I didn't like blindside her and break up with her. Right, right. It was in very the personally blindsided was the third person because she had no idea what was going on. And she would never have because I never wanted to speak about it.

SPEAKER_01: But she obviously the other person spoke to her about it and she called me. But yeah, I mean it's still it's still this is over a year ago. Right. And it's still complicated. Like I wanna have a friendship with this other couple, and it's it feels very I don't know, like it feels really hard because if I text and there's no response, I think, oh, you're just over me.

SPEAKER_00: Well, beyond just the other couple who, you know, you guys have seen a few times, you said, um, and had a lovely dinner and things like that. There's also, you know, an extended circle in that group that is also connected to some people in our friendship groups. So friendships are difficult, like you know, doing going to galas or going, I mean, gallas, but are we going to gala? The the fundraisers. There's fundraisers. I'm like, are we going to gather? I didn't know what a gala is.

SPEAKER_01: Did I get broken up with so I couldn't go to a gala? Gala's or for rich people.

SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to a gala. Going to a bar. Okay, I take that word back. We're going, yeah, we we go to dive bars. We go to bars. We go to uh uh we go to yeah. So let's just yeah.

SPEAKER_01: But yeah, there there is an interconnectedness between the two groups, although they're kind of distant. Yeah. But that's the thing is actually the women in that group who were more, I would say, acquaintances, I still hear from them lovely. I get texts from them, I'll get a message, or they'll listen to a podcast, they send me a message. Like and it's fun to see them. I don't see them, I mean it's rare.

SPEAKER_00: I like that the extended group is yes, is great. But you know what? You also see that they have a big they have a solid group, and I don't know that I see the the main characters in that group.

SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, I don't know. I don't I don't pay attention to it at all. Um, but yeah, no, that the other extended group is fun and they're close and they have a really good time with each other.

SPEAKER_00: But I don't this is where like on Facebook, I'm not so it seems like you guys did have a little bit of closure between her eight page email and you guys having a conversation. So you you were able to just say, like white, like wipe your hands, you that is your personality, and that is how you can close things off and say, done with it. I'm moving. Moving on with my life, I have another, I have a great group of friends, a great group of girlfriends. So I, you know, part of the reason we want to have this conversation was like we understand and we have both gone through on each side.

SPEAKER_00: So like I said, I was the one that had um a girlfriend, granted, it was a long time ago. It was like, you know, when before when my kids were young, um lead me in the desk that still left a little bit of an ache in my heart. And then, you know, you were the one that or you are able to do that when you have been wronged, or someone says something wrong about someone, you're like, I'm done. So we wanted to just kind of like showcase we we both had these different stories of kind of like what it's like to be on each side, but the bottom line is friendship breakups are so hard.

SPEAKER_01: But for our girls, let's say, or any young women going like coming up, I would say is, and that's the question is is there value? And I think there probably is in having that hard conversation, even if it's not gonna change the outcome.

SPEAKER_00: Because this is where I mean, I think I hope that would have answered that question different before Chris passed away. Yeah, okay. Because I I think if you truly have had a wonderful, beautiful friendship with somebody and you know that this is just sort of a disagreement or a bump in the road, um, great. But like with your person, once you started realizing this isn't the the person that you probably will be friends with forever, that's going to, you know, sit with you in some really hard times or what have you, is it this is why I'm saying this about crisping.

SPEAKER_00: It's like, what do you have the energy for anymore? And what is authentic? And how are you going to live your most authentic life? Is like what we try to talk to our girls about. Sure. Like, are you going to be in a friendship group with someone that you can't be authentic with? I mean, I feel like life's too hot, I feel like life's too short and I don't have the energy for it.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but we're also at let's say like midlife. Yeah, but it's so how do we teach our girls that who are in their let's say young 20s, mid-20s, is that's hard to gauge at that age. Yes. If you're I think that you learn like people at that age, I mean, if you can find and this is the hard part for Ashley, she had this beautiful, authentic, incredible friend who she met like the first day of college, yes, who unfortunately passed away two years ago from cancer. I look for and granted, thank God I've got my other girls who are also Ashley's best friends, but like I look forward to the day when she has a best friend again because it's her I smiled that's in my hair.

SPEAKER_01: Oh, I know.

SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I mean she does have two built-in best friends. She does, and they're so close.

SPEAKER_00: So I guess uh yeah, what I want to call is like her and Katrina. Yes, okay, I could say her name. Yeah, okay, yeah. Um her and Katrina were, you know, obviously so close. She's so loving, like so young, 23. 20, yeah 23, passed away. So if you could kind of think about the friendship that they had since they started college, um, and I could actually tell another story. Um I I would tell another story, but I had, you know, I I do. I have a best friend, and I think um, I think the bottom line is if you have true, meaningful friendships, you don't have big knockdown drag out blow-ups.

SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say, because I can imagine, right? Like, I think they could have walked through the fire together.

SPEAKER_00: That was my question. Walked through, yes. I think that they could walk through the fire, but like if they had a disagreement over a boy or over a a trim they went on and there was they think they probably weren't they probably could have worked it out because the friendship really was a true friend. And I think that they could have had those hard conversations. Yes, a true com a true conversation where their friendship would have continued and pro until they were old ladies, probably. You know, that's very rare, first of all.

SPEAKER_00: Right. Um, and they did seem to have that, which again goes back to there are plenty of friendships and a lot of friendships that are really beautiful and then just seasons in your life.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I and I think that's probably true. And I mean, I think that's part of the other episode we're gonna have because we're gonna do a friendship series, is there are seasons to friendships. Yes, and those are okay, yes, because you are in different seasons of your life. Yeah. Getting married, having jinx are we supposed to try to make your finger wine? She's taking half my wine.

SPEAKER_00: Actually, it's jinx. You owe me a Coke. But we don't have any Coke, so I'll do wine.

SPEAKER_01: Okay, so in light of that, yeah. Right. So I don't know. I guess the sort of the takeaways is you know, my growth is that I don't have to stay longer, but I do probably need to speak sooner. Is as things are starting to maybe slide, like a slow, I would say this friendship had a slow descent into despair. I should have probably said something sooner and knowing that it probably wasn't going to last, yes, is what I'm saying. Yes, but I think maybe more authentic, and I think it's that's the hard part is it's hard to have conflict.

SPEAKER_01: But having conflict silently, you're gonna have conflict regardless, is what I've come to learn. So you're gonna either have internal conflict or you're gonna have external conflict. And if you're having to go to your spouse, which I was, and I'm sure she was, in fact, to the tune of her spouse actually called me after that dinner and wanted to know what was going kind of on. And he fully was aware of it. I'm sure. And I have no problem speaking to him, and I spoke to him and said, This is what's happening.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, really a know when situation buddy um is yeah, I think it's like instead of having the internal conflict which you're going to have, and that's going to keep spinning in your mind for it. Took me months to stop thinking about this. I mean, it really did, even probably was over it. Right. As far as like mental years. Yeah, emo. I mean, I every day I would wake up and think it was like so heavily on my mind. Even though I wanted I wanted no repair.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think m a lot of that too was probably knowing that the friendship circle was going to be broken.

SPEAKER_01: That was really, I think that weighed on me. I mean, that still weighs on me. Right. I still talk about it. Yeah, that still weighs on me because it's affected Sean so dramatically in such a significant way that makes me so sad.

SPEAKER_00: So um so I'm the problem. You're not the problem, but that leads me to like I wanted a conversation and I didn't get one. You did have a conversation with that person. Um had you had the conversations earlier, I think you still would have come to the same conclusion. Yes, I agree.

SPEAKER_01: Um it would have just been a different maybe exit. I don't know. I don't I'm not sure I can isolate.

SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I guess I just am a big believer now. Again, I'll I'll say it is back to Chris Dine, is that things are so um so insignificant to me now, like little things that uh I probably yeah, would you have recognized earlier and then just said, like, we're done. Um, I want to be able to teach my girls to to find the the patterns. And not that nobody deserves second or third chances, especially girlfriends, because I mean everybody we just were talking to another girlfriend who had gone, you know, on a trip with her girlfriend and things didn't work out so well, and they're trying to work through some things right now.

SPEAKER_00: And do I believe that friendships have bumps in the road? Yes. Do I believe that they are knockdown drag outs and those are your friends? I don't believe that.

SPEAKER_01: No, and I think that they shouldn't be you shouldn't kneel off a film with someone feeling worse than you go on the mouth.

SPEAKER_00: No, and I think you can work things out for sure, and and because there's always going to be misunderstandings, 100%, you know, and if there's alcohol involved or if there's sure uh money involved of a trip or whatever, what have you. Um, you know, there's definitely can you look beyond some of the maybe misunderstandings and know that that person's still going to be your friend for life? That's a keeper, right?

SPEAKER_01: Right. And that's I think also there's disagreements you are listening for understanding, you're not listening to be right. And there's not means though energy because it's like you know, if there's mean though energy, sorry, goodbye. Yeah, I know, I agree. Uh-huh. Yeah, and that's where this relationship was not going to be the testament of time. And looking back at the time that we were in it, yeah, she was a good, I would say she was a really good friend to me. She was a good friend.

SPEAKER_00: And I was authentic, if I'm being completely honest. That was her authentic self. Yes. You it just later on became something. She wasn't, she didn't change.

SPEAKER_01: She wasn't, no, she I didn't think she was. It just finally clicked to me that this just wasn't aligned with what worked for me. And what you felt good about. And what yeah, did that make you feel good? It didn't. It made me feel like crap. Yeah. Right. And I also, you know, I it's interesting the conversations that my girls have brought to light after the fact of that friendship and the stuff that was said to them. I feel like, what? Yeah. I it's shocking.

SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, does this surprise you when it does not at all?

SPEAKER_01: She, you know, obviously said some terrible things about me after my side. Yes. And I'm like, well, just one significant one. One significant one, yes. But no, that's and that's um goes back to I think how you feel about yourself, not you. Yes. Yes. No, I mean, I think that, yeah. I think that the biggest part of friendship breakups suck. And just do moving on is really hard. I think for not only the people who are in them, but for all the people who are affected by them.

SPEAKER_00: And I do feel like going through friendship breakups are um are good learning lessons um for what we want. Yeah, the hard hard learning lessons, but also like what we um and even as like women in our 40s and 50s, like what do we truly value in friendships? Ease, support. You don't have don't don't ask what I need, just please just do it if you feel like you need something. That's where you really lock in. I feel like it. I mean, there are I have some um pretty solid girlfriends um from California that I'm still friends with.

SPEAKER_00: And then I have um a c I have uh like a little handful of girlfriends from high school that I'm I could probably call and and say anything to, especially my my girlfriend Lindsay, um, that just get you. And there's never been a disagreement, there's never been an argument. It's an easy, easy, easy friendship. But I think as you get into your 40s and 50s, you don't have time for bullshit. Yep. You don't have time for um in uh not being authentic, not saying, you know, how it truly is, you know, like being transparent.

SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think it'll be transparent. And you have a really dynamic group of girlfriends who are really honest with each other. Not about, I'm not talking about like shortcomings for ourselves. And we've always been aligned. Like we are I know that if something comes up in my life, I am not in this alone. I have a group of girlfriends who will judge me if I'm falling. Yes, will if I'm need if I need help, I can't solve a child. I will I will not paint your walls.

SPEAKER_00: Please don't ask me to paint. That is Kendra and Jowson's shop.

SPEAKER_01: I will never paint your walls. Kina loves to call out our friends by name. Uh so because they like to paint. They do. And we have a group of girlfriends that are like they should be painters by trade. They're so good. They're like amazing. They just enjoy it like that. They do. We have a great, but I just know that there's literally nothing that would come up in my world emotionally, like if something was going on, like logistically, like we can count on each other and just such a different way.

SPEAKER_01: Where I don't looking back at like some of those other formers, very one-sided.

SPEAKER_00: So well, I do feel like um just to touch on really quick, I don't it's not that I don't think that that other friend of yours, from what I know, I do think she would have dropped anything. She did.

SPEAKER_01: She did. She did drop something to do of it. Oh no, she did. Oh yeah, yeah. She uh I'm not saying she wasn't a good friend.

SPEAKER_01: It's just the it's the it's the long the long haul. It's the long haul. Because she did. She was a very good thing. So I wanted to like acknowledge those moments and I'm not and I'm not taking anything. No, I know. Yeah, yeah. Because she would, she would she would do all the things. She can't. I mean, there's so many things that she did for me. Yeah. And advice? Yes, I was gonna say, totally ebbed and flowed our that friendship group. All of us, I think, were very good friends, traveled well together, did lots of stuff together, would totally help each other out.

SPEAKER_00: The insecurity, the poking, the probing, maybe the jealousy a little like I just I don't I want I don't know she wasn't jealous of me, but maybe she wasn't jealous of other people, but wasn't jealous of me.

SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't be jealous of. But it's more of it wasn't gonna go the distance. Yes. I think because of those other because at some point you just like you were saying, is you have to be authentic and transparent and be just and I couldn't do that on the actual level because there were so many other little things that came into play. So So you guys, friendship, friendships are hard. Find a group of friends. My takeaway from this is if you find a group of friends that you can truly be with in peace and in happiness.

SPEAKER_01: And it might not be until you're it may not matter.

SPEAKER_00: Your best friends may be yet to come. So this is what I tell my girls. They'll they'll probably put it on my gravestone, even though I'll be cremated. They'll say, uh, well, first of all, it'll say, Don't forget your jacket, because everywhere we go, I always have a jacket, and um, they are always freezing, and they know that I always say, Don't forget your jacket, because if you're cold, you can always put your jacket on. But what will be on my tombstone is um the best and most amazing women in your life that will be able to carry you through seasons you never thought possible.

SPEAKER_00: Um, you haven't even met yet.

SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that. How did we end on that? I love that. I love it. I love the best. Well, thank you for joining us. I will say we've heard lots of great comments of recent on some of the episodes, especially the Perry Menopause, the Hermodel one. Um, reach out if you guys have comments, if you have friendship breakups that you've gone through, DM us. These are yeah, what was that?

SPEAKER_00: Uh we were gonna do um, we're doing this little like friendship series. Um, the other one that we were going to talk about. We're gonna talk about making friends. Making friends, so like friends in the middle age, or even making friends in your, I mean, 20s, 30s, 40s, those friends that come and go out of those years once you're done raising kids, and then the ones that stay, and then the new ones that you make that you haven't even met yet. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01: The ones you haven't even met yet. Well, thanks for joining us. It's Hilary, it's Sada, and we will talk to you guys soon. Hi, guys.

Midlife Friendship Breakups | Why Losing a Friend After 40 Hurts So Much

What's This About?