Midlife Grief Brain | Why You Can't Think Clearly After a Loss - WTF Just Happened?

SPEAKER_03: This is What the F Just Happened.

SPEAKER_01: The podcast that proves life is messy, men life is so wild, and laughter is definitely non-negotiable.

SPEAKER_03: So grab a cocktail or a mocktail or your favorite emotionally supportive snack and let's get into it.

SPEAKER_03: Welcome back. I know it's been a minute, or maybe not, because maybe we just played our last episode. So whatever, whatever stage you're in, that's that's perfect.

SPEAKER_02: You could be listening to all five of our episodes in one scene.

SPEAKER_03: Or two. Whatever. So anyway, welcome back. I'm Hillary. Today on this episode, which we have titled La La Land, it is the place that you go when real life is uh too heavy. So, and we're gonna Sega will be diving in, but it's sort of and you probably all can relate, there are moments in life with whatever you're going through that you are escaping. And that can be through, let's say, travel or work or relationships, just distraction, money, spending money. I never do that. That we will never distract by spending money.

SPEAKER_03: Never distracted by spending money. That is intentional. Anyway, so anything that sort of makes you forget like just for maybe a brief moment what real life feels like now. So Seda has been living in this space for the past year. And we're gonna talk about it. Sort of what it feels like to be, I guess, sort of paralleling those universe is you're living in real life, and then you're also distracting from what maybe your real life looks like in the moment for a variety of reasons. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah. I mean, I think that we um, you know, I was thinking about this episode a lot in the last couple days, uh, mostly because I had just gotten home from a trip to Mexico with my family. And, you know, I was talking to Hillary and I, we voice text each other every day. And I think I was just kind of like feeling like like re-entry is so hard for me. And um, you know, she's like, well, it's hard for everybody. Like, doesn't matter if you're in grief or not, like re-entry is hard for anyone when we have these lives of hustle and bustle and work and bills and finances and mortgages and house and car payments and all of that.

SPEAKER_02: And I thought, yeah, but it feels like extra like difficult for me in this grief stage that I'm at, that it almost feels like I am like using travel over the last year to kind of like escape my reality of my husband dying. And, you know, I've been so blessed to be able to go a lot of places. And Chris knew, like my my husband knew, like I was a total wanderlust, like travel bug girl, and he was happy like watching football and on the couch, and he's like, Go with your girlfriends, do whatever you want.

SPEAKER_02: And we did a lot of things together, but like big travel, he was always like, I'll go if you want me. Like, I'm so okay if you go with your girlfriends. So oddly enough, I feel like over this last year since he passed away, I've had like some really big, really great opportunities to go travel. And I love to travel. And so let's see, I I went to Greece with my dad and his wife for over two weeks. Um, I went to Nashville with girlfriends for a week. I just got back from Mexico. So I really have enjoyed.

SPEAKER_02: I mean, I go to California a lot. I went, um, I feel like I always feel like there's a trip, right? Like you do.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah. Yeah. You're like, oh, where are you going again? Like, yeah, which is amazing. But right, there is always sort of like the next trip is already planned.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah. And it feels really good for me in this stage in grief to like put something else on my calendar. So after I got back from Mexico, I was like, man, this is just like the fifth, sixth trip this year that I've been on that I'm really evaluating when I get home. Like, what I enjoy my trip, and all my trips have been invites from like my family, my girlfriends. Like, let's take you somewhere, let's go do something. We're, you know, my dad and his wife, like, we're going to Greece. Are you, do you want to join us?

SPEAKER_02: Well, hello, of course I want to join. Um, but each time I've come home, I have, you know, had a really hard time like getting back into the mind space and the head space, like that that is not my reality. Like my traveling, like yeah, like being in a bathing suit and having um hummus and yeah, it should be humm hummus and pita in Greece, like isn't real, right? Um, being in Mexico, having tacos and beers and a chef, you know, cooking for our family for you know, Thanksgiving or whatever is like so nice.

SPEAKER_02: But yeah, so I got home and I and I was talking to Hillary, um uh this Hillary, my my girl, my Hillary here with us right now. Just a few Hillary. Because I have a few Hillary in my life, I which another Hillary is a therapist friend of mine who's one of my best friends, and we'll have her on as well. But I was actually talking to both of them today, oddly enough, uh, really just kind of like dissecting my weekend. We got home on a Friday, and I like could not bring myself to do much of anything like Saturday or Sunday.

SPEAKER_02: And I know that in most people's lives that that's normal, but it got me thinking, like, am I like stuffing my grief into these cracks of like travel and buying the next plane ticket? And you know, what am I gonna do, you know, in December? Well, I'm you know, gonna go see my kids. Like, I can't wait. I have 19 more days and I get to absorb myself in the California sunshine. And what what what's next? Okay, what's after that? Well, we do, we have like other things on the calendar, and I'm thankful for that.

SPEAKER_03: But do you when you're gone, do you feel like emotionally? Do you feel like when you're out and about doing all that fun stuff? Like obviously the the grief goes with you. Uh-huh. It doesn't leave you. So, like, do you is it like you sort of are able to put it on a shelf for a second? And then when you walk back in your house, it's like, oh my gosh. Yeah. It's like it's this is where it lives.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because the uh all the people that I travel with, whether it's my um my best girlfriends in California, my dad, uh, you know, whatever that is, Mexico with my whole family, um, it is like putting it on the shelf. We do like honor Chris. We're there with my husband, like we're we're there, we're telling stories, we're laughing, we're putting funny music on, but it feels like safe and it almost feels like as if he's there. Right. So I feel like safe in that moment of my travels, whether I'm we're laughing about him or not.

SPEAKER_02: So it definitely feels um maybe like I don't know, it's hard to explain, like kind of like as if he's there, but he's not there with me. But it feels safe to like be myself and to be like who I maybe was before.

SPEAKER_03: Well, because you're with all these people who know you, love you care for you, have seen you guys. I mean, obviously are part of family forever, girlfriends forever. So there, it's right, like, I mean, I always feel like when we go do stuff that Chris is he's always spoken about, yeah. We always like so grateful for it. And there's always these like little funny things, but it does. You know, like I could understand how that would, but then when you come back, the hard launch of door opens, great dog and cat, yeah, your house looks right same as well.

SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it's definitely like um it happens usually, yeah, like on the last day of travel, it's like, okay, the anxiousness settles in about getting home. And um, you know, I've I think what I struggle with the most, and I've been offered plenty of help in this area. So like, is it's almost like cathartic to me to get off the airplane and it's almost like a challenge for me. Like when I have to call the Uber, like I pull my phone up while I'm in baggage claim and Chris would always get me from every trip I ever went on, right?

SPEAKER_02: He'd be there at 9 a.m. or 11 p.m. and without fail. Or, you know, I mean, most of the time it was him, but I've had my mom would get me or whoever. But like now I just it's like I'm it's like this new life of like the Uber is taking me home, like to my house, right? You know, and it's just something that I feel like I've kind of am learning and getting like a callus to, you know, that it's like it's okay. Of course it's and to be honest, if Chris was still here, right, I would take the freaking Uber.

SPEAKER_03: I would be like, no. It's different though, because he would pick you up, right? If he couldn't, then you take an Uber. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah. You have to take the Uber. Yes, let's say have your mom pick you up or a friend. It's different. That's a totally different, that's totally different.

SPEAKER_02: I almost get in like a bratty mindset of like, nope, nobody's kidding me. I'm gonna take the Uber and I'm gonna like be the big girl. I'm gonna put my freaking luggage in the Uber and I'm gonna sit in that car. It was midnight or whatever time it was when I got home from Mexico. And I was, it's like I feel proud of myself, but at the same time, it's very like lonely and sad that I know that once the Uber pulls up to my house, I'm going into an empty house and I'm putting in the code on my garage, and I'm going in, and of course, my animals are there, and I'm so thankful I have my dog and my cat.

SPEAKER_02: But um, and it's almost like I put my luggage down and it's like my shoulders just kind of like slump a little bit, and I'm like, okay, like here we are.

SPEAKER_03: Like when here we are. Honestly, I can't imagine that. I mean, honestly, like I I would live in La La Land too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: Which I'm sure at some point will change, but like that's where I would want to be. I would want to be on a trip. And I'd want to be with doing other things, seeing other places, having other experiences that just sort of momentarily take me away from all the monumental things that life has thrown at you last year. And yeah, unfortunately, with Chris passing, wasn't the only one. You have other things that you've been dealing with. Yeah, like normal life stuff too. But like they're just right, you walk in and it's like that door opens to you.

SPEAKER_03: We're back. I'm back, and this is sort of what it looks like. What I know you've got quite a few widow friends who are in different stages of having like their spouses lost or just different types of loss. Yeah. What do they say about this?

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting topic of kind of like I remember hearing this from somebody when Chris first passed. Um, and it it's it's kind of like everybody handles their grief in a different way. And some people like spend a ton of money, some people travel a lot, some people lay in their closet and like don't shower for weeks at a time. Um, some people um are, you know, are on dating apps right away and are like going out with everybody they possibly can to fulfill a need that isn't there anymore.

SPEAKER_02: Um, there's a lot of different, and I think it can go for anybody in grief in certain situations. I mean, it doesn't have to be a, you know, a spouse that passed. It can just be like going into that alternate reality and that la land is what we're calling it, that detachment of facing um build like how do you go from literally having this life with this person that you woke up every day, you went to work, you made dinner together, you um, you know, you went on a bike ride, then you went to bed together, and you talk while you're in the shower, you talk while you're in the bathroom, and then you do it all over again the next day to like nothing.

SPEAKER_02: Right. So then the reality of La La Land is like, well, I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing. And almost we we've all talked about this, me and some of my my widow friends, and I even have a couple widower friends who are kind of like when you're given, not given because nobody wants this, but it's almost like you have this like hall pass. I guess that's maybe what you would call it. Like a hall pass to kind of live in this like really alternate reality of um kind of like, well, I don't have to like do all the things I'm supposed to do because you kind of because you lost your person.

SPEAKER_02: Sure. Or your child, or you're at a miscarriage, or you went through a really crazy divorce because your husband like you could probably say the same thing. I mean, you didn't have a choice. Obviously, you had to like pack up and get your freaking life together and and get on with it. But you could have easily like sunken into a whole and uh I did.

SPEAKER_03: I was on dating apps really quickly, and we'll talk about that in a different thing, but I was on way, I mean, way too fast. I mean, I was right emotionally, but my kids weren't. Right. And not that I was bringing people around because I wasn't, but I was totally just about decision making, really. I was like, right, I'm finally like I finally get to just go and do and be, and I'm not mine was different because I wasn't reporting to anyone anymore. So I was like I feel.

SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm like, I'm not reporting to it's we like I have I told you, like I I tell the girl, the girls are my when I come over to Hillary's, just so you guys know, like her husband's an amazing cook and he makes me tonight. He's like, Did you eat? And I said, No, I had wine and cheese before I came over. I'm totally good. And he's like, Nope, you're having tacos, like I'm making you tacos. So he made me tacos and a martini. So praise the Lord for Sean.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, just so we're clear, the widow diet has been cheese and crackers.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's been lots of snacks.

SPEAKER_03: Like, yeah, you and she looks amazing, she always looks amazing.

SPEAKER_02: But you I mean, yeah, you could definitely, I mean, I don't go to grow like there's a lot of things, topics that we could talk about, which probably could really tie into La La Land, which is I don't go to grocery store, like I it's hard for me to go to the grocery store. It's hard for me to be in like a space where there's like a ton of people. I went to Trader Joe's, I think, twice in a 12-month period. Because you also don't want to run into people. Yeah, I don't want to run into people. And I also just kind of feel like um, yeah, I just feel like it is a lot of work to do, like even just put a try I like a trash bag in the liner.

SPEAKER_02: I feel better now. Like I we talked earlier, like I do feel like at month 12 now the fog is starting to clear, which I actually appreciate because I am um able to uh speak clear my words. I'm not stuttering. You're like you were stuttering. I was totally, yes, like I was stuttering. And my widow friends also talked about like stuttering. You can't think of like simple words. Um, you absolutely have zero decision-making skills whatsoever, which I still kind of struggle with.

SPEAKER_03: I was gonna say that. I mean, but all of a sudden you're thrust into every decision is on you. I mean, yes, yes. You're used to sharing your life and you guys knew each other since you were teenagers. I mean, to have to then all of a sudden right, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: But even if my mom or somebody says, or you girls are like, what do you guys, what do you want to do? Where should we go eat? I'm like, please do not. I cannot even comprehend where and when saying, and usually I was the cruise director. Like, I'm good at that. I enjoy doing that, you know. I like to have a plan, I like to make sure everybody has a good seat. Like, so that has been, I'm coming back into kind of like being able to do those things. So I do appreciate some of the things that are happening now after 12 months, um, in terms of that, but I'm definitely still as the fog is clearing, um, it's it's almost as if I'm living in this like weird reality of like taking almost like a like a you know, a fan like you'd fan yourself with if you're hot.

SPEAKER_02: And I'm like trying to bring some of the fog back into like my head. It makes sense, right? So yeah, so I don't have to like deal with what's ahead for me because I don't know what's ahead because my life was so planned and like every day was the same, like how you get when you're married, like it and it wasn't, it was awesome, like at the end, you know, it was amazing. We had such a great marriage at the end, but it's almost as if like I'm just doing things to kind of like escape and not escape like travel wise, because I've been with people that I know the whole time.

SPEAKER_02: I'm not just like I'm not just like going to the airport and going to the counter and saying like one-way ticket to Bali because I want to eat pray love journey. That is not what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_03: You should you could and you should. I know but you have what's lovely is people have pl uh have basically said, you know, hey, come here, come here, come do this, come do that. That's amazing. But no, I would think that, you know, I I wonder honestly for people I don't know, do you? Bless you. Thank you. Um I don't know. Do you have any widow friends or widower friends that talk about like not doing that? And like they just like let's say you like you weren't Lola Land can be so many different ways.

SPEAKER_03: It can be that's what I think we want to talk about too. It's like let's say we know for you for travel is huge, and you were always I mean, I always stewardess, right? Yeah, or flight attendant. Uh-huh. I guess you're a flight attendant and um that but you love like this is such a it's just been what I like forever.

SPEAKER_02: It's like travel to see wanderlust type person. I Chris was always like, please don't say you you want to move here when we go travel somewhere because that's what I always did.

SPEAKER_03: I'm like, I love it here. Let's let's maybe we should move here. That's just always how I'm yeah. No, but like what if like I I mean that all makes so much sense. Like what like what's the alternative, I guess, is in that. I don't know. Because you're not lawland, where are you?

SPEAKER_02: What it's just that there's no like there's no road ahead, there's no like road signs ahead for us. So like it's all a new, it's all a new journey. The path is fully unplugged. Eating, drinking wine and having cheese for dinner, like that, like I would never, I mean, yes, I would probably do that before if Chris when Chris was here if I like wasn't hungry. I'd just like have a piece of cheese and a glass of wine and be fine. But like it's it's like learning, slowly learning to to navigate a journey in adulthood.

SPEAKER_02: Right. And I mean, I've never lived alone, which is what something I talked about in therapy with our you know, my therapist is like. She goes, Hey, you've never lived alone.

SPEAKER_03: I've lived I've never lived alone. You haven't either. I've never lived alone. So it's a I don't even know what that would look like, honestly. No, because I would very strange parents' house to college. Yes, so same. Yeah. And then engage or whatever, and then engage. No, and then right, and then married, and then by choice, right, left marriage, but had my children. I had three girls, right? And we're little, yeah. When that all went down. And then, you know, Sean entered and back to living with other people.

SPEAKER_03: Never I don't, I don't, yeah, a daily existence like with nobody else. Very strange. Yeah, I can't honestly. I I think La Laland sounds incredible.

SPEAKER_02: I mean, it is, it's like very I I do like appreciate like my quiet time and all of that, but it's it's something that it's almost like I'm like a bait, like a child, and I'm trying to like navigate like adulthood in this like childlike process sometimes because I don't know there are no rules. No, right? That's what I think is so bizarre.

SPEAKER_02: And I kind of am a rule follower for the most part. So because there's no rules that I'm supposed to be living by, it's a very strange space to be in. Like I I remember having wine and cheese like the first few months, and I was like, I should probably make myself something on the stove, like tacos, because Chris would make tacos if he was here. And then I was like, But why do you have to? I don't have to freaking make tacos because I don't want to do the freaking dishes.

SPEAKER_03: Right. So it's like, right, sit at the counter, have someone. Yeah, I think that's so I that's such an interesting like place to be. Because and I think that's quite true whether, and this actually may translate into people who maybe not grief, like not having lost someone, but also people who just haven't found their person and they're kind of going through life sort of solo. And maybe like wanting to be with someone else, but their life is when they come home, it's just sort of a quiet space of you don't support anyone.

SPEAKER_03: No one, you're not answering that.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what's really interesting is that because I'm in this space right now of like being trying to figure out like what do I like? Do I want to read more? Do I want to like meditate in my room with like a you know, like music, or do I want to sit out on my back porch? What I'm realizing now is interesting because I am really trying to teach my kids, my girls, like really, because they're experiencing living out of the house and um, you know, alone or not alone or with roommates or not roommates, but like how important it is to um really like find some things that you like to do alone.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I don't think I ever had that, which is interesting. Because I think like we can say, what are your hobbies? And I'm like, I I don't I'm not good at anything. I'm not like I'm not talented. We're not like I'm not an artist, I'm a character. Yeah. No, like I'm not our one of our girlfriends isn't in right, she's an amazing gardener. She has this amazing design eye. And our other girlfriend is an like amazing interior design. And another one is in she's probably we have a horrible, like she's an amazing.

SPEAKER_03: We have hobbies. Do I don't have a hobbies? No, us. We talk we love to talk a lot. We love to watch our shows. I don't know. And being able to recite like all of the ins and outs intricacies of like real house lives is actually a hobby. No, but if it's a hobby, then fuck yeah, I have a hobby.

SPEAKER_02: Okay, you you are s so great. Like you you're learning, like you're working out now for like you love to work out. That's your jam now.

SPEAKER_03: Because my body was like You know, I was like, I was a good man. And I needed to not be a marshmallow. You were not the Michelin. I was. I my roles had some roles. I was like, this needs to not happen anymore. No, I get like But it's not like, oh, I don't like, oh, I love working out. No, no, no. I know it's hobby. I know what you I drag myself to Plotties into I mean, thank goodness for another friend who goes with me to weight training. I I wouldn't just roll into the gym. The gyms are intimidating.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah. No, I I guess it just it's like one of those where yeah, I mean, I redefining. You are in yeah, redefining stage. And even when I redefined because I was parenting, I didn't have to like I never Well, did you have time? I didn't have time to say like what is what and honestly, you think about it in adulthood of like what are the things that you like?

SPEAKER_02: And so you get to now I'm like trying to figure that out, right? Like I love live music, like I love concerts, I love like absolutely I love podcasts, like I do love um like self-development, like I'm absorbed in my coaching stuff and learning all my things right now, so I can do that in life. But I really am like also learning how important it is to teach my own kids um to be okay with being alone, first of all, right? And also finding things that you really love to do, whether that's Pilates, whether that's painting, you know, all the I really want my kids.

SPEAKER_02: Well, there was the yeah, because now I've been with Chris for so long uh since I was so young that like we just normally did everything. I mean, I did a lot of stuff with separate with my girlfriends, but in terms of like you're coming home, dude. I wasn't taking, yeah, I wasn't like some artist where I had like some you know room that I was in for three hours a day and he would like knock on the door and find me there. Like it's just well, that wasn't me. I throw away that shit when we go to the paint and sip.

SPEAKER_02: Oh my god, I will first of all don't ever you know should not invite me to those because I'm terrible at them.

SPEAKER_03: We are gonna do penguin painting at the zoo. I'm okay.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we did talk about that.

SPEAKER_03: But normally when I do those and doing like someone who made a blanket at the craft thing, and my blanket literally was crooked.

SPEAKER_02: It was no not cricket. It was l it was like a it was just like a strip of fabric.

SPEAKER_03: Yes, instead of I couldn't follow the rules and I was bored and I didn't care about it. So everyone else came up. Okay, Hillary and I are not like crafty jinx. But like we're not crafty. I used to be crafty. But it wasn't my it's not a hobby. No. But no, but uh you're in redefinement, which I think yeah, I think honestly, at any point in adulthood, I don't care what phase. So this is a great point.

SPEAKER_02: This is right, like we're all whether you've lost someone or not. This is like redefinement of like what do you want in your life? Yes. This life is so short. Go out and freaking live it. Right. Learn something that you, you know, if you like to travel, find a way to travel, even if it's like cheap travel, which I don't even if it's just within your city.

SPEAKER_03: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. You can discover right. You don't have to go somewhere far and wide. You can, you know, go 20 minutes down the road or an hour down the road and see new things. Yeah, there's always things to discover. I think it's just being intentional about going to discover.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, whatever that looks like. I was uh I actually on my drive over here, I was uh leaving a voice message from my sister-in-law, um, Kelly, and I was just, you know, like just letting her know that I recognize like that I was in Mexico with my siblings. And, you know, I just wanted her to know like I did recognize that I feel so blessed that I was with my siblings in Mexico and how much, you know, she probably misses her brother. And I just left her a voice mail, a voice message. But one of the things that I wanted her to know was like, it doesn't mean well, I was talking to her about what we were gonna talk about tonight, actually.

SPEAKER_02: So I I said, like, even if you go to dinner at night, like say you and I go to dinner, it's still a form of like escaping. Absolutely. And it's still a form, you know, of kind of like escaping what your reality and then driving home and walking in just as I would if I was coming home from Mexico, just as I'm going to do tonight after I leave leave your house. Like I'm going to go home. And it's like, is it developing that, what do they call that? Like um, you know, like when you do something over and over, is it like a repetition?

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, is it developing like a callus or like a habit in shit where it's like gets easier to like open? I don't know.

SPEAKER_03: I don't know because it's like feels so new. Honestly, like so Chris's past just, I mean, just a little over a year ago. Yeah. And we somewhat dragged you out to get you out of the house that night. Um, and you probably didn't want to like write, you didn't want to come join us, but we just wanted to be with you and you know, see you and you and yeah.

SPEAKER_02: I didn't know what I wanted to do, which was the part of grief as well. Like you literally just do not know what you're going to feel like doing until the hour comes. Right. And I'm so thankful you guys are flexible with me.

SPEAKER_03: But then the flip side of that was I think the conversation we all sort of had, because we ended up coming back and just doing a little stuff, fun stuff on your porch. Yeah. Oh, and remind me, I have pillows for you. They fell skin. Okay. But the question was, I think for all of us in that what we talk about, right? Is you're going home to like your house. And maybe that's like a a great safety, that's your safety space, and right, it's where you lived with your family. Or is it quiet? And is it like is that I can't imagine that that ever gets easier.

SPEAKER_03: And maybe one day, I don't know. Yeah, I haven't had the type of loss. Yeah, but does it does I mean, a year now, wad is lifting a little. Does it ever get easier? Like when you walk in, let's say, from a dinner or from being with the girls, or let's say being on a trip. Well, it depends on how much wine I've had. That's all easier to meet. Or how much martinis I've had. Yes, exactly. That yes. That's it. Right. I'm sure it's a little easier because you're like, I'm going straight to bed. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03: But that's mean that's what kind of like I think about in the quiet moments of what does it feel like to go home?

SPEAKER_02: Yeah. I mean, I feel like most of the time it feels like safe and cozy, and I love my home and I love my bed, and I I have little lights on that, you know, make me feel like it's cozy. So I don't, it's honestly, if I'm being truthful, like very rare that I walk in and feel like I like can't get up the next day because I'm so sad. I feel um honestly like grateful for the house I have. I feel so grateful that I don't that I'm able to stay in my home right now. I feel like I just try really hard to focus on like just like the positive gratitude of like where I'm at at the moment.

SPEAKER_02: Like I have a I have cozy blankets, I can turn my heater on, I can have ambiance with my fireplace and my, but a lot of people, I mean, I'm in widow and widowers groups on Facebook, and my gosh, some of their lives are just uh terrible. And I'm feeling just so flipped upside down. Oh my gosh. I mean, they just don't have any um, they have no friends, they've been widow or widower for, you know, three, five, ten years, and they're stuck in this on the couch with their cat, unable them don't brush their teeth.

SPEAKER_02: Like it's just you can ease I could honestly easily get sucked into that absolutely if I did not have family and friends that were checking on me constantly and saying, um, and I mean, obviously I have a job that I have to go to, but like So you also wake up and I I mean I I think you've chosen, you mean you're a joyful person anyway.

SPEAKER_03: You have great gratitude in your heart, you always have. Yes. But you are intentional, which I don't know how you honestly do it, you are intentional, but every day a feeling joy and gratitude for something, whether it's your coffee mug, like you've said, you open the cabinet, which one speaks to you for that day. Yes. That is a choice, right? And I'm not saying that people who And it's an ability to control yourself to do that. Right. And for the people who can't, I mean, I honestly I understand that part too is I don't know what I would do, honestly.

SPEAKER_03: I don't know if I could like this all happened to me. I don't know if I could wake up every morning and by choice choose gratitude and joy. It's I think I would probably be literally laying on the floor. And you probably drag me to the shower and be like, you need to take a shower.

SPEAKER_02: Like this is I mean, I do like some days, like you know, the when we did dinner, you know, for Chris's anniversary. Like it took uh our girlfriend to come knock on my door and like I didn't want to answer the door. I wanted to just like I didn't want to go to dinner and I knew that once I got out I would be fine, but it took her coming to the door and I was like, shit, she's knocking at the freaking door. I'm upstairs. I needed to call my kids and check in on them. I was not, and then she opened the door, and of course I just fell apart um after I had was already crying to our other girlfriend.

SPEAKER_02: Right. So it took like a villa, it takes a freaking village. That's all I can really say. And I just pray and hope that like if this ever happens to anybody, like that they do have some sort of village or to reach out to someone, but it can definitely take you down very fast, which is kind of where I'm very cautious about talk when I'm talking about La La Land. It's definitely um one of those things where I walk a very fine line in the middle of the road, where on one side it's like deep dark sadness, where I wouldn't shower, brush my teeth, or even care about anything for the rest of my life, or on the other side it's like on the extreme, like joy, future, amazing flowers, you know, coffee mugs, roses, and I walk the fine line because like I want to also make Chris proud of like the life I'm living here for the rest of my own.

SPEAKER_02: He is. And I know, no, I do feel like that he totally is, and I also am the only parent left.

SPEAKER_03: Um and you're modeling, I mean, so beautifully for your girls.

SPEAKER_02: I just feel like I have a lot of like lessons to learn on my own. I've already learned a lot of lessons, like that could be another podcast about like my marriage, and it was really, really difficult for a lot of years, and we got to this really beautiful place, and then he was taken. So that I struggle with a little bit, but um, I'm I'm really just trying to figure out like where do you kind of like level back out into moving forward into this life that you're supposed to create that you're not used to anymore when you come back from living in Lahala Land, whatever that looks like.

SPEAKER_02: Right. Drinking too much, shopping too much, uh, traveling too much. I don't know what too much is because I ne there's never, there's not a rule book for it, right? And nobody's telling me that I can't, I shouldn't have cheese and wine for dinner. I should probably have protein and a salad and drink water. If you want right now, but yes, that is my freaking golden ticket hall pass. It's like I don't get I don't want to freaking have protein and a salad and water. I want to have um a chomps and a cheese stick and a big glass of wine.

SPEAKER_03: Like in in a year from now, if you're like, okay, I'm in a different space, you'll be in a different space. Totally. Right now, I think as like you were saying, the fog lifts, la la lay is sort of the path you're in. Yeah. Which I would say can be different for so many people, so many different ways to have gotten there, any transition in life.

SPEAKER_02: I mean, yeah, one one widower or one widow. I don't actually know, I haven't talked to my widow or friends about kind of what they're doing. I mean in terms of, you know, um, what they do to kind of disconnect from reality. But um, yeah, one widow that I know is very much um, we had a conversation the other day just about being married for so long and feeling like there's a there's something called widow's fire, which that will be a whole nother episode. Um so I'm that that is like um it basically is like when you it's just something that happens to widows and widowers after your spouse dies where you are just I don't know how to say it, like um just say it.

SPEAKER_02: Just give it to us. It's like, oh gosh, sorry, mom. Sorry, Kathy.

SPEAKER_03: It's basically like any family members, this is the time that you need to tune out. We're gonna give it a three-second countdown. So just hit pause. Uh-huh. Just hit pause.

SPEAKER_02: Three, two, one. So it's basically like you are wanting like affection and intimacy so bad that you are just craving, I mean, which to each their own. I mean, I obviously it's been like a year for me, you know. Like I'm it, but this is different. This is like um something with your like nervous system. It's like a scientific thing that happens to widows and widowers, um, where they are just so like they're on their mind is a constantly like so you're back to being basically in high school. Yes, like basically sex is on your mind, and or like, yes, like you might look at the mailman and be like, uh, you like Did you want to deliver inside tonight?

SPEAKER_02: And not that you ever would like actually do it, but it is talked about widely in our groups, but that is a whole nother episode. The thought process. It's uh it's just a it's yeah, it's like a feeling of, and I don't think it has anything to do with like um uh like it happens quickly. It happens like between months, like it's like a thing, like between months two and like nine or whatever. And it can linger on for after years, you know, it's like a little give or take, but it's just this like body chemistry like thing that happens between like your brain, your nervous system, and it's it's just basically like you just are so I think it's you just want any person to have like physical touch with you.

SPEAKER_03: It's a weird No, I I can imagine that I mean there's a name for it.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so it's called Widow's Fire. And then does your sort of as you kind of come, let's say, post let's say nine months or whatever the timeline is, does it sort of your brain sort of like realigns and yeah, so like I was talking to my girlfriend who's a widow too, and we were we were talking about Widow's Fire, and we're kind of like, eh, what I like, whatever. But what we're talking about now, what she brought up, like what she's going through, is definitely um like almost feeling like uh not ready to date, right?

SPEAKER_02: Like not ready, she's not ready to like date anyone or even go on apps, but it's like that could also be la land, right? So like going on a dating app or like talking to someone, like having some type of emotion. She's like, honestly, if anybody gives me any sort of attention as a male saying like you're beautiful, or I would love to take you out, even if you don't act on it. It's like she said, like she feels as if um that is what she's struggling and craving so bad is just like um emotional intimacy, really.

SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, for so I was, you know, married, I was with Chris for 20 over 25 years. And all of a sudden everything is just like gone in one second, and you and he was like so great at like um, you know, just like always open the door, held my hand, always told me how beautiful I was. I look so good, even if I was being bratty to him. I'm like, I can get the door myself, you know. Like I was he was so and so to go from somebody filling your cup all the time emotionally to and physically to absolutely nothing.

SPEAKER_03: They all crave, I mean, people aren't meant to go through life solo. I don't think they are a personal thing.

SPEAKER_02: Even if you have like the greatest of girlfriends, like I do think like having you know a partner, whatever that looks like for you.

SPEAKER_03: It's like it's like people you need to be. You're meant to be a community, yes, and you need someone else like in your space on your side. Like you just need that, even if you've got your best friends, and you can like say anything to you. Totally having another person, right, connected intimate all of those different things is such a different level.

SPEAKER_02: So for her, La La Land is that is getting some type of like just talking, or not even talking, like actually like going through with like um you know, going on and she's been a widow for a few years now, but like going dating dating and like maybe not dating for the right reasons, just to like fill a cup and go into La La Land in that term term of like an alternate reality of kind of like what And I haven't heard the widow this fire, but I mean I was very much because I mean, granted, I it was a choice for me to get divorced, and I had been emotionally divorced probably for I mean a v many, many years and then had physically moved out of our bath our our bathroom, out of our bedroom.

SPEAKER_03: But I I mean I could not wait to because you weren't done so long prior. But I was like, and was I craving a new relationship? No. But was I craving someone to like just validate me and connect with me and want to connect with me? Yes. And so like I don't know if that's just a universal. I mean, what is is different because it's like a home. No, but I think that that is hard stop. That is a yeah, that was a slow descent.

SPEAKER_02: Like a slow burn, yeah. Like but I still think it brings us all back to like the same place of feeling um right like you want the connection. And maybe I could even say the same thing for like traveling, like it's just a connection with other people that I'm with in also in La La Land, because they're also detached from their own reality. That's true, right? In their experience, you're at your new place. They're not, yeah, we're all yeah, they're not home taking care of their kids, making lunches, paying bills.

SPEAKER_02: We're all in La La Land, right? Um for the time being.

SPEAKER_03: Exactly. To go to land and enjoy yourselves. Yeah. And to come back refreshed and recharged and new experiences and all these new fun things.

SPEAKER_02: But yeah, like so when when does the la la land have to end? I guess is kind of like where I'm at now. Right. And does it have to end? And what does that look like in for me as like a grown woman, like having responsibilities to well, you're a premium adult.

SPEAKER_03: I'm a premium, thank you. So like right now, so in my family, what we call this is baby adulting. Well, we those are our kids. Right. So maybe like right now you're sort of in like la la land baby adulting mode. Because you don't write, like you still have serious responsibilities. Right. But at some point, you will transition back into being a premium adult. I will. Yes, I think you're not. What if I don't want to go back to the version of like the baby adulting? Yes. Yeah. Interesting. It's a combo.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah. A baby premium. Yes.

SPEAKER_02: But I think right. But like how long do you get the the hall pass to kind of say like my husband died so I'm traveling, or my husband died, so I'm spending money, or my husband died, so I'm on the apps, or you know, I think that that's kind of like I don't know what that looks like, you know.

SPEAKER_03: It's also like if it's a point where it's destructive, of course, right? That's different than I think you get the freaking hall pass as long as you want it.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: Right. You do like your brain is processed. I mean, you are one day you're going like you're going straight. And the next day you're going backwards. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: And I'm not even like the same person that I was like before. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: As you're refiguring this out, I mean, I I think that's so incredibly normal. Again, not therapists, so don't think this is we will have them on later. They the the actual real people will come on and give us like insight. But I I just I think you get to live wherever you're living for however long, and you're not doing anything destructive. You're I think being uh incredibly aware and incredibly open with the stages that you're in is beautiful because I think this is applicable to even if you haven't lost someone, you know, like through grief.

SPEAKER_03: Or you're in a weird I mean, it could really go for the same thing of us like in midlife. It's midlife, it's friendships, it's true. It's I think this is applicable to so to every stage. Or people struggling with mental illness or whatever.

SPEAKER_02: It could be like I'm serious. I mean so many things. So I think for me it's like okay, escapism. Escapism, and it's like how do I like it's a way to I think it's how you write I think I'm okay for with it for right now. I think what I struggle with is like my re-entry into kind of like my reality and my responsibilities, but yeah, when does that happen? Right.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we're doing those every single day. So you Yeah, I mean I obviously have any responsibility because there's nothing irresponsible. It's just no, but but like mindset-wise. I mean, I don't know, don't go back, stay in La La Land. I think you stay there, right? I think everyone I don't know, yeah, yeah. Maybe we all need to go to La La Land. Yes. Live in some and maybe that's actually like a really good thing for life is you kind of like straddle the universe of la law and pre-moving adult. I like that.

SPEAKER_03: I like because why do why why do we have to be one way or another?

SPEAKER_02: And that's what I talk about all the time. Like, why are yeah, like with there why do we need to live in this regimented groundhog day? Like go and live your freaking life. I mean, but there we still obviously all have like responsibilities and things we need to do. Um, obviously, I'm not being destructive to my finances or my body or uh d un dishonoring Chris, but I do struggle with like that very weird gray area that my life used to have this total consistent day in, day out thing, and then it went haywire, and there's absolutely nothing that even remotely is close to what it used to be, and it's all chaotic to living in an alternate reality and still trying to work and raise kids.

SPEAKER_02: And yeah, it's just a strange thing. So I just want to definitely come on and just like talk about. I don't know, like you said, we don't know the answers. I don't, I'm not, I'm we don't know what's right, what's wrong. There is no right.

SPEAKER_03: This is just normal, is yeah, yeah. And honestly, like I think any anyone who is going through anything, this is right. Stay wherever you need to be. Yeah. And like I think the it's like being the path will get it will come back to the way it's gonna be.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah. And my girlfriend Lauren, who's a um a widow, she's a grief coach, you know, she said to me too, like, just be like gentle with yourself. When you do come back, like gentle, like I was feeling so much guilt that I couldn't kind of like snap out of it and get it together and like have all my laundry done the day after I got back or like go to the grocery store. You know, and she's like, it's okay. And I feel like that is what I want to be able to give my per myself permission to do is like it's okay.

SPEAKER_02: I almost feel like I want to live such a solid, like really grateful and um important, not important, but like meaningful life that laying down and not doing anything for two days to come back into reality. I struggle with that.

SPEAKER_03: And you and I, you know, as your pseudo therapist, yes, not licensed. Yes, and right, best girlfriend, yes, Z, um, therapist, aka medical. You get to do that. You get to do it however it works for you. And I think that is true for every person on any given day is I think the first thing we have to do is be super kind to ourselves always. Nobody else, right, on the Instagram, on the gram, or on Facebook, no one is living your life. Everything looks a certain way elsewhere, but being really kind to yourself and allowing yourself to do what feels right for you in those moments is so incredibly necessary.

SPEAKER_03: And I think we should we all need to do that more, right? I think you don't have to do anything. No, and especially laundry, because laundry is stupid. Oh my gosh, I need the laundry fairy. Laundry, I know. Can we create a laundry fairy? My god. Yeah, that would be I like the laundry, it's the putting away part that I find I struggle with. But I just think that right, I think for everyone, yeah, be kinder to yourself. True. Yourself grace always.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, whether you've had loss, grief, anything. I mean, lost your job, whatever.

SPEAKER_03: You want to have a piece of wine, piece of wine, you want to have cheese, yes, and some wine, you do that. Or a piece of ass. You go freaking do that if that's what you want to do. I mean, whatever. If you do you. So you do whatever you want. Yeah, and I think wherever you are, like for you today and for me, whatever is working for us, let it let let that just be.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think so. I think it's really just about like stepping back and like having this conversation with you today. Um, and just pro it's really just like a process for me to to process like being okay. Yes, with um that I don't love my reality right now. And it's okay. And if I want to escape it with travel and escape it, you know, by getting on a plane because it makes me feel like I get to leave everything behind for now, then that's okay. Absolutely. You know, it totally is. It totally is.

SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I guess have a friend group or a family member that can pull you back out if if things are starting to go in an irresponsible way. I hope all of you, I hope everyone has got someone who said if I message you from Italy and I'm I only have a one-way ticket, then and you're like your house payments due, then you probably you know will be telling me. Overdrop my checking account. Yeah, if I have three cents left, yeah. Can you wire me a hundred thousand dollars? Exactly. I just met, you know, uh a group of people I'm gonna go to travel with that need money.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, If you're in Europe for the next six months, we might have to come get you. Yeah. And say, okay, wait, we're gonna just play. That would be fun. No, I think message message at the moment is La La Land is a totally normal space. It it sounds, I mean, I haven't experienced what you've experienced. It sounds incredibly normal, and I think it is applicable to so many different places. Yeah. In different stages that people are going through because life is challenging.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, life is messy. Life is messy. Let's so here we are talking about it. So thank you.

SPEAKER_03: Thank you for being vulnerable and sharing. I think that's I think it's a widely maybe it's not a topic that I mean I've never certainly talked about this.

SPEAKER_02: But you experienced it, you know. Right, in different in different ways. Once we, yeah, once we kind of got into it, you're like, oh yeah, I did do that in a certain way after my divorce, you know. Once we change your names to Lala, La La.

SPEAKER_03: That's the land that we're gonna live in.

SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh. Okay, well, this was a good conversation.

SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm so happy that so maybe um I should have probably said this at the beginning was I should have said, you know, get that cocktail or mocktail or your snack. Because like this was a little bit right, like this was deeper and it was good. Yeah, do you I mean so many people are go through this stuff.

SPEAKER_02: I think so. Thank you for sharing. Yeah, thank you. I mean, even I was just gonna touch on really quick, like I was thinking about like postpartum, you know, postpartum depression can put you into total too.

SPEAKER_03: So are so unregulated.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um they're all so lots of topics about you know grief and all those heavy parts about uh just detaching from reality, like it's okay and it's normal and um and you're doing great.

SPEAKER_03: Thank you. Everyone's doing great, you're doing great. I think every single person who makes a choice to get up every day, right? Yeah, you know, it's yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: And it's okay if you and it's okay. This is one of the biggest lessons I learned. Like, if you want to lay on the couch and like not brush your teeth for two days because you are just in the thick of it, yeah, lay there. Then just lay there. Just lay there. And in a couple days, do what you can, which is what I did today, Monday, to come to you. Yep. I mean, I worked, but like do what you can to like freshen up, get your teeth, throw on some deodorant, and like get into the sunshine and get yourself out of your house.

SPEAKER_03: Exactly. Yeah. And go travel. And go travel. Don't take a go travel. It's all better. Okay. Well, it was wonderful connecting. I love you so much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: I love talking to you. Thanks for listening, you guys. We we love you and we're you know grateful that you guys are here.

SPEAKER_03: Thank you. Talk to chat soon. Bye.

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